Sprocket Selection - Ludicrous? Maybe, but it's working for me. Custom foot pegs. Still want a clutch.

[FYR]

Nowadays, I ride everything from fast, bermed out trails to snotty tight stuff, but I mostly enjoy the tight, twisty, sometimes muddy and often rocky trails with lots of challenging obstacles. On my 2024 Alpha 80 (as far as gearing goes), I've run everything I could in trying to make my Varg as nimble, responsive and fun as my other woods bikes. I have run 12, 13, 14 and 15t front sprockets... 45, 47, 48 and 49t rears. Finally, I have settled on this as my best or most favored attempt: 12t KTM front sprocket (obviously steel) and a 49t (also steel) rear sprocket. These, coupled with my 90/90-21 front and 140/80-18 rear (Kenda Knarly) soft and sticky tires with 3mm thick tubes set at10 psi f & r, have me smiling again. I've set my maps to, #1 = 50hp/10% braking, #2 = 50hp/25% braking, #3 = 50hp/50% braking, #4 65hp/50% and #5 80hp/50%. My default and most used map being #3.

I've done some other things too, like custom 45mm rearward offset foot pegs.

The bike is now much more suited to my riding style and uber-responsive to throttle input, in an abrupt but somewhat controlled manner. However, after all this experimenting I am still convinced that I would be even happier if this bike had a clutch. In fact, if it had a clutch I'd probably kick back to a 13/48 sprocket setup.

 

[DaveAusNor]

great info. When my bike arrives I'm going to try making the gearing as long as possible while still being able to pop the wheel up reliably.

 

[Chaconne]

Nowadays, I ride everything from fast, bermed out trails to snotty tight stuff, but I mostly enjoy the tight, twisty, sometimes muddy and often rocky trails with lots of challenging obstacles. On my 2024 Alpha 80 (as far as gearing goes), I've run everything I could in trying to make my Varg as nimble, responsive and fun as my other woods bikes. I have run 12, 13, 14 and 15t front sprockets... 45, 47, 48 and 49t rears. Finally, I have settled on this as my best or most favored attempt: 12t KTM front sprocket (obviously steel) and a 49t (also steel) rear sprocket. These, coupled with my 90/90-21 front and 140/80-18 rear (Kenda Knarly) soft and sticky tires with 3mm thick tubes set at10 psi f & r, have me smiling again. I've set my maps to, #1 = 50hp/10% braking, #2 = 50hp/25% braking, #3 = 50hp/50% braking, #4 65hp/50% and #5 80hp/50%. My default and most used map being #3. I've done some other things too, like custom 45mm rearward offset foot pegs.

The bike is now much more suited to my riding style and uber-responsive to throttle input, in an abrupt but somewhat controlled manner. However, after all this experimenting I am still convinced that I would be even happier if this bike had a clutch. In fact, if it had a clutch I'd probably kick back to a 13/48 sprocket setup.

I would prefer an even better fly by wire system and better mapping. I am much happier without removing any power from controls for something like a clutch. Even if the clutch is a good single finger it forces riders to remove some of their power & control from the bars.

I am convinced that you don't need 2 controls to modulate power especially with E. Many ICE riders actually spend a lot of money on auto clutches like Rekluse to actually attempt to get something more like what E bikes already have. Dual power modulation systems on ICE machines is necessary due to the inconsistency of combustion's power delivery but E doesn't have that problem.

Your mods seem like the right direction for what you want to do. Hopefully Stark will improve their software/mapping and that will allow you to fine tune to the point where you don't need a lever to get what E should be able to deliver for you.

 

[Moto Vita]

I would prefer an even better fly by wire system and better mapping. I am much happier without removing any power from controls for something like a clutch. Even if the clutch is a good single finger it forces riders to remove some of their power & control from the bars.

I am convinced that you don't need 2 controls to modulate power especially with E. Many ICE riders actually spend a lot of money on auto clutches like Rekluse to actually attempt to get something more like what E bikes already have. Dual power modulation systems on ICE machines is necessary due to the inconsistency of combustion's power delivery but E doesn't have that problem.

Your mods seem like the right direction for what you want to do. Hopefully Stark will improve their software/mapping and that will allow you to fine tune to the point where you don't need a lever to get what E should be able to deliver for you.

I hope you're rigt about a clutch, I just ordered my first e bike (EM EscapeX which has no clutch) and am a bit nervous about learning to ride it. I'm a very old dog that will need to learn some new tricks.

 

[Chaconne]

I hope you're rigt about a clutch, I just ordered my first e bike (EM EscapeX which has no clutch) and am a bit nervous about learning to ride it. I'm a very old dog that will need to learn some new tricks.

Yes it is an adjustment (many of us have years of living with a clutch as second nature on ICE bikes). With the Stark the throttle is so good it is just beyond belief. I expected a little more binary behavior but is silky smooth. I think better software and maps would make it even better --like with power curves.

My last ICE bike was a 2020 KTM 300 2T which is a great bike but I like my Stark better. I was used to heavier bikes like my older WR450f which is a lot heavier than the Stark. The Stark is heavier than my KTM but that is about the only category the Stark doesn't win with rideability in my opinion.

Let us know how the Escape X works out.

 

[Oded]

Nowadays, I ride everything from fast, bermed out trails to snotty tight stuff, but I mostly enjoy the tight, twisty, sometimes muddy and often rocky trails with lots of challenging obstacles. On my 2024 Alpha 80 (as far as gearing goes), I've run everything I could in trying to make my Varg as nimble, responsive and fun as my other woods bikes. I have run 12, 13, 14 and 15t front sprockets... 45, 47, 48 and 49t rears. Finally, I have settled on this as my best or most favored attempt: 12t KTM front sprocket (obviously steel) and a 49t (also steel) rear sprocket. These, coupled with my 90/90-21 front and 140/80-18 rear (Kenda Knarly) soft and sticky tires with 3mm thick tubes set at10 psi f & r, have me smiling again. I've set my maps to, #1 = 50hp/10% braking, #2 = 50hp/25% braking, #3 = 50hp/50% braking, #4 65hp/50% and #5 80hp/50%. My default and most used map being #3. I've done some other things too, like custom 45mm rearward offset foot pegs.

The bike is now much more suited to my riding style and uber-responsive to throttle input, in an abrupt but somewhat controlled manner. However, after all this experimenting I am still convinced that I would be even happier if this bike had a clutch. In fact, if it had a clutch I'd probably kick back to a 13/48 sprocket setup.

Can you post a photo of the rearward foot pegs? Is it something you fabricated?

 

[FYR]

This is the first set I made from an older version of KTM pegs. These were 50mm further back and 10mm lower than Stark OEM:


Then (feeling VERY positive about the initial effort) I made a second set using a new set of KTM pegs that were considerably wider and longer that the originals. This time 45mm back and 11mm lower than Stark OEM:

 

[Moto Vita]

This is the first set I made from an older version of KTM pegs. These were 50mm further back and 10mm lower than Stark OEM:
View attachment 13495

Then (feeling VERY positive about the initial effort) I made a second set using a new set of KTM pegs that were considerably wider and longer that the originals. This time 45mm back and 11mm lower than Stark OEM:
View attachment 13496

Very nice, do KTM pegs fit the Stark mounts or did you modify the pegs to fit the mounts?

 

[Erwin P]

I would prefer an even better fly by wire system and better mapping. I am much happier without removing any power from controls for something like a clutch. Even if the clutch is a good single finger it forces riders to remove some of their power & control from the bars.

I am convinced that you don't need 2 controls to modulate power especially with E. Many ICE riders actually spend a lot of money on auto clutches like Rekluse to actually attempt to get something more like what E bikes already have. Dual power modulation systems on ICE machines is necessary due to the inconsistency of combustion's power delivery but E doesn't have that problem.

Your mods seem like the right direction for what you want to do. Hopefully Stark will improve their software/mapping and that will allow you to fine tune to the point where you don't need a lever to get what E should be able to deliver for you.

But closing the throttle in a whiskey throttle situation doesn't really work and the bike is too strong for the rear brake. Maybe have a pressure switch in there that can cut the power after a certain amount of pull or have a little 1 finger "clutch" would help.
I also like pulling the clutch on my ICE when rolling of or over some obstacles. The Stark goes into engine breaking with throttle closed.

 

[AL_V]

The Stark goes into engine breaking with throttle closed.

Only if you have regen set, you can keep some of your maps set with no regen if you want to coast with the throttle closed.

 

[Beagle]

I also like pulling the clutch on my ICE when rolling of or over some obstacles. The Stark goes into engine breaking with throttle closed.

I was thinking about this as well. I guess playing with engine braking maps before going through a certain section is not as intuitive as modulating the clutch.
Maybe they could have some kind of practical feature to temporarily disengage engine braking, just like the Desmo450 can apparently instantly disengage traction control for a moment if you push somehow on the clutch?

 

[AL_V]

I was thinking about this as well. I guess playing with engine braking maps before going through a certain section is not as intuitive as modulating the clutch.
Maybe they could have some kind of practical feature to temporarily disengage engine braking, just like the Desmo450 can apparently instantly disengage traction control for a moment if you push somehow on the clutch?

I really like the regen, I think I have it set on 80% in the map I use almost all the time.
I agree it's not intuitive to change maps, at least not for me,...yet.
But you can also just barely crack the throttle to simulate coasting.

 

[Erwin P]

Only if you have regen set, you can keep some of your maps set with no regen if you want to coast with the throttle closed.

True, but it's for very short obstacles. Think of 2 meters of logs and before and after sand track where i like 40% regen. Also switching very fast between maps gets my phone to lock up resulting in no insight on battery etc.

I can very much live with as is, don't get me wrong, but if we're talking improvements, there you have it.
No full clutch, but just a 1 finger pull. While at it make it programmable so it can also be a regen engine brake. That way you can ride the bike with the regen you like, but when used on the street (EX) you can use it to spare your brakes and get some charge bac in the proces.

 

[Chaconne]

But closing the throttle in a whiskey throttle situation doesn't really work and the bike is too strong for the rear brake. Maybe have a pressure switch in there that can cut the power after a certain amount of pull or have a little 1 finger "clutch" would help.
I also like pulling the clutch on my ICE when rolling of or over some obstacles. The Stark goes into engine breaking with throttle closed.

I am considering disengagement somewhat different than using a clutch for power modulation and riding. I agree with you that some kind of disengagement or neutral would be good for many situations not the least of which is safety (like a whiskey). I suppose you could hit the power button but that is not reliable in my experience.

Also it might also be good to have such a disengagement system use auxiliary power like a separate cmos battery so it could be used if the bike is not operational. Pushing a Stark out of the woods is not easy unless you have a master link or a chain breaker handy there is no other disengagement/neutral.

Agree with @AL_V though, using the throttle slightly differently than traditional use is key and finding settings that work in different situations is also important like maybe have one with no regen where you could have little engine braking.

I still ride my ICE bikes and enjoy them, but I am definitely starting to notice the busyness of the ICE control systems(they are habits we all got used to I suppose) especially in the gnarl. Being able to focus on riding and riding technique rather than shifting, clutching, power modulation, and potentially stalling which all impacts control especially in difficult spots is a huge win with the Varg in my experience at least.

 

[FYR]

Very nice, do KTM pegs fit the Stark mounts or did you modify the pegs to fit the mounts?

From what I've seen, the KTM pegs are not a direct fit. The older versions can be made to fit with minor modification, but the angles are quite a bit different on the newer style.

I didn't want to compromise my OEM Stark pegs without testing the result first, but now that I've spent a couple hours on the reworked versions I plan to modify the originals similarly.

 

[stephane]

Nowadays, I ride everything from fast, bermed out trails to snotty tight stuff, but I mostly enjoy the tight, twisty, sometimes muddy and often rocky trails with lots of challenging obstacles. On my 2024 Alpha 80 (as far as gearing goes), I've run everything I could in trying to make my Varg as nimble, responsive and fun as my other woods bikes. I have run 12, 13, 14 and 15t front sprockets... 45, 47, 48 and 49t rears. Finally, I have settled on this as my best or most favored attempt: 12t KTM front sprocket (obviously steel) and a 49t (also steel) rear sprocket. These, coupled with my 90/90-21 front and 140/80-18 rear (Kenda Knarly) soft and sticky tires with 3mm thick tubes set at10 psi f & r, have me smiling again. I've set my maps to, #1 = 50hp/10% braking, #2 = 50hp/25% braking, #3 = 50hp/50% braking, #4 65hp/50% and #5 80hp/50%. My default and most used map being #3.

I've done some other things too, like custom 45mm rearward offset foot pegs.

The bike is now much more suited to my riding style and uber-responsive to throttle input, in an abrupt but somewhat controlled manner. However, after all this experimenting I am still convinced that I would be even happier if this bike had a clutch. In fact, if it had a clutch I'd probably kick back to a 13/48 sprocket setup.

Quick question on the 12t and 49T combination. I installed it last night and I bought a new chain and was thinking I would have to add one link but it ended up being too long so I went back to 114 links which makes my rear end a tiny bit shorter then stock. I just tried the bike tonight around my little wood and noticed that having the snappy ratio and shorter rear end made hill climb actually a lot more challenging. Did you notice any difference going up steep hills?

 

[FYR]

I'm running a stock length chain and found the 12/49 combo to be pretty similar to stock (which on my 2024 Varg Alpha was 14/47) for wheelbase. When I ran the 13/49 I was rubbing the mudflap enough to leave marks from the knobby tire, but I appreciated the even shorter rear-to-center. Note here too that I run a rear 140/80-18 tire setup.

I don't do much in the way of real (as in long) hill climbs, so my report is based on the type of riding that I do. Which, does include steep (very, very steep actually) short sections of incline and I do notice that you need to be smoother on throttle input than with taller gearing. Which, is an easy adjustment for me.

 

[RobA321]

what power settings you run with 12/49?

 

[FYR]

what power settings you run with 12/49?

Check the first post in this thread.

 

[Dirt-E]

About the clutch, I couldn't agree more. If they could set it up to simply feather the power the way we're used to on an ICE bike, it would go a very long way to keeping the majority of ICE riders happy and adoption would be easier.

I own both and hate the fact that neither my Alta or Stark have a way to cut the power other than chopping the throttle closed. I've been riding electrics since 2018 and it's something I've NEVER gotten fully used to.

Now, to the statement that rekluse is trying to stimulate electrics in the lack of need for a clutch is not wrong. However, it doesn't address the technique of clutch-ups and coasting. The rekluse lets you do both while still engine braking (f desired). Plus, the added safety of a clutch is that if you whiskey it, you at least have a panicked chance at killing the bike (since in Stark's infinite wisdom, they didn't include a kill switch like on the Alta).

Good on them for wanting to innovate, but some things are there for pretty good reason and I'm not sure why there is so much resistance to giving your customers what they're asking for. It's not like having a simulated clutch would fundamentally change the way the bike operates. If you never touch the lever, then the bike will operate exactly as it does now. Cool! But you may win over a whole lot more people if you had a clutch.

I know I'm not the only one and I know several people that have ridden a Stark but refuse to buy them, largely because they don't have a clutch.