Stark actually profitable... kinda

Erwin P · Nov 11, 2024

Chaconne said:
I am not sure on the margins and it depends where you live I suppose. Having a dealer network is more than just service and markups though. A good dealer network can do localized marketing and outreach, especially to folks who are not early adopters and willing to make the change to a non-ice bike.

EVs generally in the US are suffering from many things but among them is a strong anti-EV press sentiment which sort of aligns EVs with one kind of politics or another. Local supporting dealers who are in communities serving those communities can do a lot to overcome this. Particularly with their core customers. In dealerships Starks can be seen as a good competitive bike not some symbol of some wokeness internet conspiracy or whatever the politics flavor of the day is.

And more than that, with production reaching upwards of a 1000 bikes per month, dealers can act like an inventory buffer in market fluctuations and directly serve customers in varied geographies. The internet is flat space un-tuned to localities. Plus, many customers are not willing to part with 10k for a mail order bike on the internet even though Stark has a pretty good reputation.

I am not a dealership fanboy but I think it would be short sighted --at least in the US which is currently one of Stark's largest markets-- to think the short term profit boost of a few bikes on the front end will offset the potential to really grow the brand in a solid way in varied markets. Even old well known companies like Nike have stumbled in failing to recognize how dealerships/resellers serve the overall business and often are more than just profit skimming middlemen.

I think Stark does a great job of a ''hybrid'' system here.
They have rather few dealers as you might expect from a starting brand. But there are enough to pick up and serivice your bike at one if you don't mind a longer drive there. However they also sell them online wich takes out the dealer margin and make more profit.

With a low number of dealers it's worthwile for them to be a dealer since they sell enough through scarse. But Stark can also sell them themselves for a higher margin.

A little sidenote. In the Netherlands we actually almost never see dealer mark-ups. The price any OEM mentiones on their website is the dealer price. For what i've heard thats very different in the US?

happyinmotion · Nov 12, 2024

Wait, what?

What's a dealer markup?

I'm in NZ and the price is the price. I can order direct for NZ$17,900 or go to the dealer and pay $17,900. How can it be different?

Erwin P · Nov 12, 2024

happyinmotion said:
Wait, what?

What's a dealer markup?

I'm in NZ and the price is the price. I can order direct for NZ$17,900 or go to the dealer and pay $17,900. How can it be different?

Same here.

AL_V · Nov 13, 2024

happyinmotion said:
Wait, what?

What's a dealer markup?

I'm in NZ and the price is the price. I can order direct for NZ$17,900 or go to the dealer and pay $17,900. How can it be different?

The price to the consumer may be the same, but that means that Stark is providing some discount to the dealers so that they can make a profit from the sale.
So it's better for Stark to sell direct.
In the US, (in general) dealers may provide a discount, sacrificing some of their profit to make a sale.
On rare occasions, a dealer may ask for more than the official "sticker price" if demand is high and supply is scarce.

Patrick Verner · Nov 13, 2024

The USA is huge market and the AMA is doing everything they can to sabotage Stark. How do you sell a race bike that you can't race? Without AMA insurance, most tracks couldn't afford to have races. Most tracks are AMA in this country.

Chaconne · Nov 14, 2024

AL_V said:
The price to the consumer may be the same, but that means that Stark is providing some discount to the dealers so that they can make a profit from the sale.
So it's better for Stark to sell direct.
In the US, (in general) dealers may provide a discount, sacrificing some of their profit to make a sale.
On rare occasions, a dealer may ask for more than the official "sticker price" if demand is high and supply is scarce.

happyinmotion said:
Wait, what?

What's a dealer markup?

I'm in NZ and the price is the price. I can order direct for NZ$17,900 or go to the dealer and pay $17,900. How can it be different?

As @AL_V says in the US resellers have flexibility to markup or markdown depending on supply/demand. Having a corporation fix a price and make everybody pay the same would hamper the free market in the US and also disrupt inventory control especially if local markets changed (NY's economic condition might not be in the same state as CA for example).

In the US Corporations try to fix prices but are often threatened with breakup for monopolistic behavior or worse price-fixing illegalities. Some price fixing is allowed for utilities in some areas but that is typically on a state by state basis. That is the theory at least, in practice well like everything it is a mixed bag.

Beagle · Nov 14, 2024

Chaconne said:
As @AL_V says in the US resellers have flexibility to markup or markdown depending on supply/demand. Having a corporation fix a price and make everybody pay the same would hamper the free market in the US and also disrupt inventory control especially if local markets changed (NY's economic condition might not be in the same state as CA for example).

In the US Corporations try to fix prices but are often threatened with breakup for monopolistic behavior or worse price-fixing illegalities. Some price fixing is allowed for utilities in some areas but that is typically on a state by state basis. That is the theory at least, in practice well like everything it is a mixed bag.

Not just between states though, is it? Like you could go to 2 KTM dealers in the same state and get 2 different quotes for the same brand new bike, right?

Erwin P · Nov 14, 2024

Here you actually can get a lower price on the bike compared to official numbers, but never higher.

AL_V · Nov 14, 2024

Beagle said:
Not just between states though, is it? Like you could go to 2 KTM dealers in the same state and get 2 different quotes for the same brand new bike, right?

Right, each dealer can offer a discount (or price above "Suggested Retail") of varying degree.

Chaconne · Nov 14, 2024

Beagle said:
Not just between states though, is it? Like you could go to 2 KTM dealers in the same state and get 2 different quotes for the same brand new bike, right?

Right that is correct, I was using the state example for illustration. 2 dealers across the street from one another could give different quotes and many times in some retailing they shop each other and deliberately undercut each other's prices.

Capitalist hardball is still played in many industries. Of course, there are utilities and healthcare that play by different rules in the US because downturns in those things could be more catastrophic than a few $k on a dirtbike. :ricky:

Chaconne · Nov 14, 2024

AL_V said:
Right, each dealer can offer a discount (or price above "Suggested Retail") of varying degree.

This is true but the "varying degree" is more like business pressure rather than an legal pressure. In fact, price fixing can be illegal in the US, though it is mostly big guys who can afford lawyers to bring cases that will pay them out.

Yet we also have a tradition in the US of seeking out alternatives if we don't like prices since we have the expectation that there will be variances to take advantage of rather than expecting that a fixed price is mostly what we get. MSRP is often a badge of dishonor. :ricky:

I have found this as a cultural difference between Americans and Europeans in my work --we don't expect to pay MSRP and often it is the opposite in Europe..

Chaconne · Nov 14, 2024

Erwin P said:
Here you actually can get a lower price on the bike compared to official numbers, but never higher.

Supply and demand can cause higher or lower here. OEMs try to stop it but they are usually overwhelmed when markets soar or crash --and that is when you find the most variation.

Erwin P · Nov 14, 2024

Lower price is often negotiated. Higher however not. When a dealer goes higher it will cost them their name. Also being a so tightly packed country they can't up the price without the risk of customers just going to the other dealer.

The 2 farthest towns are 4,5 hours apart, but it wil be hard to have 2 dealers more than 1 hour apart.

Beagle · May 14, 2025

Stark update: Stark Future Achieves Record Profitability for All-Electric Motorcycle Manufacturer

June 2024: €10.4M revenue, €210k EBITDA

April 2025: €18.3M revenue, €2.8M EBITDA

April 2025 numbers are undoubtedly boosted by EX sales and pre-orders.
That being said, in 10 months they went from 2% to 15% EBITDA margin and roughly from 700 to 1400 monthly sales, sounds good!

happyinmotion · May 14, 2025

New info from Stark about whether they are making money or not - looks like the answer is yes.

Stark Future Achieves Record Profitability for All-Electric Motorcycle Manufacturer

"highest-ever monthly revenue of €18.3 million while delivering a positive EBITDA of €2.8 million"

Pretty good going given global headwinds and other electric motorcycle companies falling over all around.

That's also a good ratio of EBITDA to revenue - 15% is pretty sweet. Admittedly, they've lots of debt to pay off so that's not €2.8m free profit but it's not nothing either.

If you take a guess at their average wholesale price you can take a guess at their monthly sales... or rather the sales that they are booking in the month that they are talking about. I expect that's the month when they released the Enduro model, so there's a bunch of pent-up orders in the months before all being booked and delivered in one month. But still, this is good going.

Chaconne · May 14, 2025

happyinmotion said:
New info from Stark about whether they are making money or not - looks like the answer is yes.

Stark Future Achieves Record Profitability for All-Electric Motorcycle Manufacturer

Pretty good going given global headwinds and other electric motorcycle companies falling over all around.

That's also a good ratio of EBITDA to revenue - 15% is pretty sweet. Admittedly, they've lots of debt to pay off so that's not €2.8m free profit but it's not nothing either.

If you take a guess at their average wholesale price you can take a guess at their monthly sales... or rather the sales that they are booking in the month that they are talking about. I expect that's the month when they released the Enduro model, so there's a bunch of pent-up orders in the months before all being booked and delivered in one month. But still, this is good going.

Agreed it is pretty surprising. In the US there is a strong anti E sentiment in some corners so it is surprising how well Stark is still doing even in the US. Probably some pent up demand for the EX too. I imagine Stark will have to move into other areas. The boutique market for dirtbikes is small and even many roadbikes (ICE and E) are in freefall in the US at least.

happyinmotion · May 14, 2025

I would love to see a regional breakdown of Stark sales.

The US market is declining but the rest of the world is still buying bikes. If I look at their map of dealers, then there's a lot in Europe and plenty in places I wouldn't have expected. Tahiti? Damn. And for the markets where bikes are growing, most of those are lower cost bikes but those can be stepping stones to more aspirational bikes like a Stark.

No dealers in India yet, but that's one reason for taking investment from Royal Enfield.

DaveAusNor · May 15, 2025

Good news for us owners. Means that support and parts will still be available.

Chaconne · May 15, 2025

happyinmotion said:
I would love to see a regional breakdown of Stark sales.

The US market is declining but the rest of the world is still buying bikes. If I look at their map of dealers, then there's a lot in Europe and plenty in places I wouldn't have expected. Tahiti? Damn. And for the markets where bikes are growing, most of those are lower cost bikes but those can be stepping stones to more aspirational bikes like a Stark.

No dealers in India yet, but that's one reason for taking investment from Royal Enfield.

Yes. The US is a big market but there is not really a motorcycle culture here. And there has never been the embrace of dirtbikes or two wheeled vehicles because they have always been viewed as just toys rather than transportation.

Europe and other parts of the world motorcycles are working vehicles that are more than just faddish toys. Soon Harley will probably be going out-of-business because its fad has run out and the last generation that played with those toys are dying off. That is why it is good that Stark is centered in Europe which is really the heart of 2 wheel culture and next gen powerplants for them.

Theo · May 15, 2025

Chaconne said:
Yes. The US is a big market but there is not really a motorcycle culture here. And there has never been the embrace of dirtbikes or two wheeled vehicles because they have always been viewed as just toys rather than transportation.

Europe and other parts of the world motorcycles are working vehicles that are more than just faddish toys. Soon Harley will probably be going out-of-business because its fad has run out and the last generation that played with those toys are dying off. That is why it is good that Stark is centered in Europe which is really the heart of 2 wheel culture and next gen powerplants for them.

I've never lived in the US so I trust you about the motorcycle culture. Honestly I didn't expect this comment since in your national SX and MX championships you have riders who are as fast if not faster than the ones in the World Championship.
However, another thing to consider is the purchasing power: a Varg costs roughly 10-14 k € or $, 1 € = 1 $, but for example the typical wage of an American citizen is two or three fold that of an Italian. Basically, at least when talking about motorcycles, 10 k for you is like 4 k for me!

So IMHO Stark Future has a better chance of selling Vargs to Americans because more people can afford them.
And BTW Prado has moved to the US and has said that in Europe he was paid way, way less.

And BTW I wish you to go back riding ASAP, supporting that decaying mitorcycling culture.

Stark actually profitable... kinda

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