Canard to race Honda CR Electric in Japan

Man what happened to this bike? Honda still dragging its heels on an electric dirtbike. That naked bike will come out before this... Haven't they seen the success of the Varg.

The best bike is the one you can buy.

HadesOmega said:

Man what happened to this bike? Honda still dragging its heels on an electric dirtbike. That named bike will come out before this... Haven't they seen the success of the Varg.

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Yes they did see the Varg success, they have also "raced" against it in FIM Explorer.
It's beyond embarrassing that Honda can't release a production bike up to the task after showcasing this prototype for 8 years. Come on, Stark did not even exist by then.

Beagle said:

It's beyond embarrassing that Honda can't release a production bike up to the task after showcasing this prototype for 8 years. Come on, Stark did not even exist by then.

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I suppose it's more a choice than an inability to release it. While it's true that many Vargs have been sold, it's also true that a lot of hatred towards electric dirtbikes has been spread and maybe Honda just doesn't think that it's a smart move to show support for them now. I think that, if batteries will keep becoming more and more energy dense, considering that an electric motor and its inverter weigh much less than an engine developing the same power, there will be a point at which electric dirtbikes will be unquestionably faster than their ICE counteparts, since ICE development at this point looks very slow and close to a limit. At that point, when maybe a 15 kwh dirtbike will weigh 90 kg, haters will have a very hard time criticizing the bikes that will consistently win. As you all know, we are not at that point yet though; we are at a point where sometimes electric dirtbikes seem to be more performant and sometimes they show significant limitations.
IMO Honda is still waiting.

Yeah all the big four are waiting. At least Kawasaki kinda has a leg up on them with the Ninja EV and hybrid. All I can say is I built an electric Yamaha WR250 and I love riding it and constantly asking myself why can't they just make something like this. Sure it's not for everyone but I think EVs are starting gain popularity.

Honda has a very clear electric program both for cars and motorbikes, they've also just revealed their first electric street bike that got from prototype to production bike in a more reasonable 2 years time.


I don't think they're afraid of any e-haters, either they think the market is not ready or they're not yet where they want to be...after 8 long years.

Trey says they had to turn down the power to finish a 15 min race, and why haven't they done any other All japan race in the past 2 years?

It's really puzzling seeing Stark sales beating any electric street motorcycle sales then Honda releasing a 50 hp 217 kg 15k€ electric street bike.

Honda could build and release a competitive production E-bike to the Stark anytime they want.

They just don't want to...yet.

But when they do MXA will be the first to test it!

wfopete said:

But when they do MXA will be the first to test it!

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And I'd buy it! Hard to say why, maybe because my first bike was a Honda, but I have a certain trust in them and how they do things that just isn't there for other brands including Stark

Michael

Could that be because Honda has been around for a little more than a couple of years?

If you think Honda could come and crush Stark whenever they'd like, take a look at their EV sales and how much they're still lagging behind new manufacturers 10 years later.

Or take a look at their 50 hp 217 kg 15k€ electric street bike.

Nothing really new to see here but I think Stark is trying desperately to get as much market share, name recognition and dominance of the premium E bike market as fast as they can before other major manufactures get involved. I don't know in what aspects a competitor would improve on the Stark design but there is always room for improvement. Just having a swappable battery or a 20lbs drop in weight would be a major advantage. Stark's price point and warranty maybe tuff for the competition to match, plus they are solely focused on E-Bikes. OTOH, the competition has some real world advantages all ready in place like name recognition, dealer networks and resources. I could see in five years Stark could be a leader or go away altogether.

Beagle said:

Or take a look at their 50 hp 217 kg 15k€ electric street bike.

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It does sound pretty weird that they don't offer anything better. Like @HadesOmega's said some posts ago, if amateurs like us can convert gas bikes into electric without spending crazy amounts of money and still getting decent results, it' normal to wonder how can't a giant like them do better.
A possible explanation IMO is that that bike has something better that we don't see, for example some more expensive material or better tolerances for something in the powertrain or way more testing that makes it more reliable.
Another thing to consider is that the strength of a big company is usually to produce a lot of components keeping a consistent quality level for big batches. They usually have a lot of boureaucracy to achieve that, that makes the unit price of small batches pretty expensive. If they don't think they will sell many of those, probably they accept to produce them only at that high price.

Beagle said:

Could that be because Honda has been around for a little more than a couple of years?

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Nope - Suzuki, Kawasaki and even KTM which I have been on for the last years have been around for some time as well but they don't have the same nimbus as Honda does for me. Yamaha might be somewhere in between, but still, there is something about the way Honda approaches things that I do like. On one hand they seem very conservative and slow with doing changes and bringing new bikes and then the next moment they seem to throw all that over board and jump right into some never before seen tech. So I actually wouldn't expect the Honda CRE to blow the Varg out of the water, more being on a similar level but just with another flavor and obviously having the backing of a solid dealer network.

Michael

drehwurm68 said:

So I actually wouldn't expect the Honda CRE to blow the Varg out of the water, more being on a similar level but just with another flavor and obviously having the backing of a solid dealer network.

Michael

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Absolutely, if Honda were to release an electric dirt bike on a similar level than the Varg, they would likely outsell it thanks to brand image, dealer network, millions of faithful customers and so on.
Which makes it all the more puzzling that they're not doing it despite working on the bike for close to 10 years.

Beagle said:

Which makes it all the more puzzling that they're not doing it despite working on the bike for close to 10 years.

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I've heard their flux capacitor is about to be released

Michael

Beagle said:

Absolutely, if Honda were to release an electric dirt bike on a similar level than the Varg, they would likely outsell it thanks to brand image, dealer network, millions of faithful customers and so on.
Which makes it all the more puzzling that they're not doing it despite working on the bike for close to 10 years.

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Dirtbikes are like flyshit to Honda though. And the only real market that matters to them is the American market and that E market is extremely limited and largely hostile to E. Honda will let others eat the cost of innovation and market establishment if there is one.

My guess is that they are far more concerned with erosion of the current markets than they are with one of the smallest declining sectors (motorcycles in general are a declining market in the US). They probably would be a lot more concerned about the generator and lawn equipment markets than dirtbikes. Dirtbikes are not even a gateway product in the US any longer and haven't been for 30 years.

If Japanese-Four have the fallback of cars, lawnmowers, pianos and whatever else they sell these days, the small European manufactures have nothing [except the government subsides ] and they should be worried.
In the short run there is absolutely nothing they can do to their 2T and 4T lines that can match the Varg.
I would also argue that there hasn't been any meaningful technological development since water cooling and EFI, and that was a rocky journey.

If all of them don't have mature prototypes by now, then they must have some cunning business plan that I can't grasp.

As a side note, the recent KTM crisis put in focus what happened to the Jap-4 circa 2008. crisis. They pumped up the production, got financially burned and decided to coast on past glory and 30 year old developments. Kudos to them for achieving it. EVs offered them an exit ramp, but they are obviously not taking it.


Edit:
I meant this strictly about the off-road market.

Of course dirt bikes are a niche market. Still, Honda has big plans for electrics



and they've been showcasing this bike for close to 10 years.

Also true is that North America is insignificant for Honda motorcycle sales, they barely feature in their plans.
Together, North America, Europe and Japan are about 6% of sales. NA alone accounts for 2.5% of Honda sales (2.2% for Europe and 1.2% for Japan). The only reason for which Europe is mentioned is because, unlike NA, it has high potential for electric motorcycles sales.


Asia represents 85% of Honda motorcycle sales and its effort is mainly focused on this area (especially India).

Beagle said:

Of course dirt bikes are a niche market. Still, Honda has big plans for electrics
[...]

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That's interesting, but consider that some years ago the news said that Kawasaki announced at least 10 EVs and hybrid models by 2025 and instead what we have now are 1 EV in its faired and naked variant and the same holds true for their hybrids:
Kawasaki Motorcycles to be all electric by 2035
https://www.global-kawasaki-motors.com/en/future/
Those are intentions and they are worth something but they are very subject to change: Honda may end up with less than promised EVs, too.
Plus, as per their statements to do that for emissions, it's understandable that they focus on street motorcycles, that IMO unfortunately nowadays still can't compete with their ICEs counterpart, which explains why they don't rush doing this.
Actually, even Stark says that their main goal is to reduce emissions, although they also remark the more practical and immediate advantages for the user of a Varg.
Not that I don't care about the environment, but I doubt that motorcycling for recreational purposes has a very significant impact on pollution; it sounds more like one of the many little improvements that can lead to a significant improvement when they are put together. Now if we talk about motorcycles used for transportation in India then the story changes and no wonder that Stark wants to make electric motorcycles specifically for that market.

Theo said:

Now if we talk about motorcycles used for transportation in India then the story changes and no wonder that Stark wants to make electric motorcycles specifically for that market.

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Honda specifically highlights the importance of Indian market and its regulations favoring electrics in their 2024 annual report.

They all know that's where the future is. Selling dirtbikes in the US or Europe is just a distraction, cracking India is the big deal. Hi Mr Eicher, how are you doing today?

Beagle said:

Honda specifically highlights the importance of Indian market and its regulations favoring electrics in their 2024 annual report.

They all know that's where the future is. Selling dirtbikes in the US or Europe is just a distraction, cracking India is the big deal. Hi Mr Eicher, how are you doing today?

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I would argue India and the developing world in general are the markets. Many of those countries/areas have a long history of motorcycle culture due to transportation, utilitarian use, and cost. In peculiar, North America never had that at any type of use scale and it is distinct in that even from the British, the closest cultural cousin in Europe.

And in its limited cultural embrace of MCs, they became more --not less-- of a recreational fad in America. For example, even those deeply involved in the fad would rarely use their bikes as transportation to and from work. And Harley culture itself has been a kind of sub-culture fad and it has been in its death throes for years.

The Japanese in the 1960s were able to fulfill the recreational vehicle segment of this fad and establish a beach head for their mid 20th century modern industrial transition. Early on the Japanese realized the fad had limits in the US and diversified into more important segments.

I doubt the Japanese will ever follow the fad model in the US again especially with a product that has increasing social stigma rather than growing faddishness. They have even been conservative with their other markets with E like cars. And they will likely leave MC chase to the developing markets and economies.