We'll know pretty soon!

[Mark911]

As posted by one of the Varg representatives:

Hi guys. I don't mean disrespect for Mark, but if you look back at his posts he's been pretty negative about the Varg. I would consider it borderline spreading FUD.

To reiterate, what I've stated on this, and other forums was the following (at the time the data was released by Stark);

1) I doubt the Varg will come within 15lbs of the advertised/predicted weight which was equivalent to a 2020/21 KTM 450.
2) I doubt the Varg will make full power for the duration of a 30 minute plus two laps on a MXGP track with a MXGP rider.
3) I doubt the Varg battery will make a 30 minute plus two laps on a MXGP track with a MXGP rider (kinda like #2).
4) I doubt the Varg battery will make a local Pro/A class race (20 minutes) in hot weather (100F plus) without thermal limiting/intervention.
5) I highly doubt the Varg will make the second moto after charging (without any external cooling tricks) of a local Pro/A class race (20 minutes) in hot weather (100F plus) without thermal limiting/intervention.
6) I'd be amazed if the Varg handles as good or better (as advertised) than any current MX bike as it's taken these mfgs years to perfect their chassis and one little change can alter the characteristics considerably (good and bad, look at the recent KTMs as an example).
7) I believe parts will be an issue for all the early deliveries until a network of fully inventoried dealerships/outlets are established. Remember the ridiculous prices asked and paid for the few parts Alta had available? It was literally a black market. Even in the mist of all the hype and sales, Alta didn't have any extra battery packs to sell regardless of how much you'd pay. And they weren't even exporting while Stark is based in and probably has allegiance to the European countries. The Alta at least used many KTM/aftermarket based parts as we all learned.
8) Any electronic issue will cause major downtime while service techs are trained and/or parts sent/returned from Europe. Frankly, even after a couple years Alta had no electronic repair capability outside the factory (and a few people like me).
9) That the Varg looked like a definite step (not leap) forward from the Alta. It would be faster, lighter and a better MX bike in general. However, in my opinion it would not be a "game changer" for those looking for significantly less weight and more range equivalent to a gas MX bike (maybe with the exception of the Suzuki, sorry Suzuki owners) unless it's used in a "putt putt" mode.
10) That the bike would be great for Vet racing and other "unclassified" categories. The lure for a young, up-and-coming B or A class rider will be limited to the open class if the racing organization even allows it. Any AMA sanctioned completion other than the Vet classes just isn't in the cards right now. If you're fast, under 25, and looking at LL's or Mammoth you don't have a choice. Plus, riding one of the big 6 (or 7/8) is the only way to get shop/aftermarket and/or factory support to help you with the cost of racing. The demographic and market are pretty slim right now. Alta faced the same dilemma, so they tried to push into markets even less tolerant to the limitations of electric. The beginning of the end.

HOWEVER - Soon we'll all be able to judge for ourselves. There'll be the initial "rush to be the first" test articles of course. When the Alta was released to the magazine folks, I don't remember reading a bad word. One of the reasons I was probably the first in SoCal to buy one. It was only after the "honeymoon period" that reports of limited range, thermal limiting, battery pack issues, parts availability problems, non-existent dealer service support, etc, started to leak its way onto social media. Only then it could be said, that buyers were truly informed consumers.

So, I'll revisit this post in six or eight months and see which of my predictions held true and where I was full of SH--! I've been known to be wrong before . . . . . . hopefully I'll be wrong more than I'm right in the case of the Varg.

 

[Philip]

Have you been one of those TSLA short sellers for the last decade, Mark?

 

[Ethos]

I'm going by the dozens of first hand reviews of the actual bike.

Go buy a talaria or ultra bee. I own one and it really isn't the stretch you suggest.

 

[Mark911]

I know one AMA National Champ who did an "first hand" review of the bike and it was essentially a very positive writeup. Just by happenstance, I spoke to him about a year ago and he admitted the bike wasn't fast enough for competition in the upper levels of MX racing and that it was constantly thermal limiting during the test. None of which was mentioned in the review. True of not, we all know how pressure (money, perks or gratitude) can subtly find its way into these kinds of reviews. That why the truth only comes out after the bikes been in the hands of many riders of all skill levels with no axe to grind or disclosure agreements.

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic based on my (our) experience with the Alta and the ensuing fiasco. I'd love to see Herlings, Fabvre, or Prado line up at a real MXGP event on the Varg and see what happens. Hole shot for sure, but what then? But frankly, it isn't (can't) going to happen for years. Same with Pro AMA SX and MX. So, Stark can claim whatever they want in this regard.

I'm just don't say things without any bases for my statements. People that know me can tell you I do a lot of analytical and computer modeling and I test the resulting theory's on my own bikes. I did an analysis regarding the potential energy in an Alta battery pack vs the gas in a MX gas bike with a typical gas tank size. Even with the most pessimistic efficiency for the gas bike and the most optimistic efficiency for the electric bike, the Alta was about the equivalent of only 3/4 gallons of fuel. Most Gas bikes have 1.5 to 2 gallons of fuel. So I knew it wouldn't have the range. But being an MX guy, I didn't care. I also know from my own experience, that you can de-tune an electric bike to extend range considerably. It'd be super slow, but one could make a claim it has the range of a gas bike.

I did many other ANSYS simulations (some shown on the forum) showing the heat flow from cells to air and under a variety of conditions. That's why I experimented with cooled dielectric fluids and cooled water to pre-chill the pack as passive cooling at higher ambient conditions simply couldn't pull that much heat out fast enough. I have the data logs of my water cooled/chilled Alta pack to prove it. Has anyone else done anything like this beside me? I haven't seen it. That's why I question some of Stark's claims.

But frankly, the Alta was just fine for someone like me (65 years old, intermediate Vet). I never had issues with range (15 minute motos) or thermal limiting (I'm not that fast). The Varg will probably be even better. I'm just saying you can't always believe the hype. If it sound too good to be true it probably isn't true. Time will tell and the clock is about to start ticking.

I sold all my electric bikes because I was simply tired of dragging generators (the noise bugs the heck out of anyone parking by you) and watching everyone else splash some gas and be out practicing on the track withing 10 minutes while I watched. It just became a long day to get any decent riding. I never really adjusted to "no gears" or clutch, although the LHRB is missed. The ability to ride in areas where noise is an issue was great, but I'm a track guy so it never was an issue for me (at least for now). Getting up in years, that 270 lbs bike was becoming a handful to load and pickup after a dump, particularly during the last laps of a race. Just little things like that.

In conclusion, I'm not a Varg hater . . . . . I just what everyone to ask the questions we all forgot (or ignored) when we bought our Altas thinking they'd be the best thing since sliced bread. Lol.

Respectfully, Mark911.

 

[happyinmotion]

To your credit, with today's update fromStark it looks you're right on point 1.

 

[Philip]

Mark 1. Stark 0.

 

[blbills]

Yeah there's no way that the higher energy density 21700's account for the full 18 pound weight gain. Something is a bit fishy...

 

[manisse]

Probably they never reached the 110kg promised, in fact I read some article saying the bikes tested in june were about 115kg but they were expecting to reach the 110kg promised in the production Varg.
Finally it has been the opposite due to battery increase and probably beacause they could't reach the 110kg with the origibal 6kwh battery

 

[Brillie35]

Well, I am a little dissapointed that not much has changed in 5 years.
Even the overpromising seems the same...

 

[JW884]

Mark I think this is spot on. I have people talk to me about the Stark all the time at the track when they see my Alta. All I can tell them is "we'll see how they are, but I'm not buying one until either I can ride one and see a large enough improvement over my Alta, or if my bike is no longer raceable/severely damaged." I think it's not pessimistic, it's realistic, as you mentioned. The technology simply isn't there yet for their initial claims and when people bring up the numbers they originally put out, I mention how Alta sort of did the same where they had to reel it back in. I knew Stark would not be able to stick with the either the weight or the range they had stated.
Now I have raced the Alta at AMA Arenacross in amateur classes (not sure why they allowed it here, but don't allow it for other competitions like LL's) and it does well there with not a single person fighting against it racing there. I know I'm not at the level trying to get scouted for a ride or anything like that so I don't mind, but that is a huge market of moto that they won't be able to capture without more support from their side and less restrictions from the organizations running the races.
I'm local B level and even I get thermal limiting at say 80F days up here in NE during normal 15-20min motos….and I'm always just about always in map 3. *ON AN MX, NOT MXR* So that is a large jump to make it doable for local pro, 20min motos, in even hotter temps.
I can't comment on the parts availability side, since I bought mine well after Alta closed, but I sure hope Stark has some well thought-out plans on parts availability and electronics/battery servicing.
I'd love to be proven wrong on these points, but they have some hurdles still ahead of them. I hope to enjoy these bikes as much as the Alta and pick one up in the future!

 

[Brillie35]

For the Alta it payed off to wait a year.
The MXR was a lot better.
And the price went down a lot.

 

[Brillie35]

Recently there are 2 demos in the Netherlands.
Yesterday I was able to take a test drive.
Had a lot of fun.
The motorcycle feels very narrow and compact.
The track was pretty loose.
After 10 minutes, 30% of the battery capacity had already been used.
So that a pro can ride it for 30 minutes on anything other than a hardpack track will not work.
The motorcycle is really neatly put together.
The plastic feels a bit flimsy.
And I don't like the phone on the bar.
Way too fragile.
A bit more power than the Alta.
But not that much better than I expected.
Too bad there are only 2 parameters to set.
Throttle response should also be a parameter in my opinion.
I wonder what the price will turn out when they finaly catch up with production.
And if the company will survive.

 

[Brillie35]

 

[rayivers]

Too bad there are only 2 parameters to set. Throttle response should also be a parameter in my opinion.

Thanks for the review! I agree 100% that throttle response should be adjustable - it's one of the major selling points for me, and still appears in the Stark videos. Re the price... the bike I ordered on July 4 2023 was $1K higher than the others, and the foot brake option now adds $200.

 

[Swank171]

Every thing on here is the feeling i have had since i placed my order on dec 17 2021. A good friend of mine bought the last of the alta inventory and computers/software when they went under and offered to sell me one of the MXRs for a smoking deal....I rode it and was blown away but at the time i had too many other porojects going to jump on it. I alway regretted not having bought it cause i could rip it in the hills by the house. Almost feel like i have to go through with the stark considering i got it for the first list price 1k less....like i can try it for free cause ill for sure break even on resale. Really hope they dont get sunk like Alta did.....I do believe there was mistakes made but thats with every business, in the end i truly believe Alta was assassinated.

I grew up racing at a higher level and left for the military young and hung up my boots and life really took me for a ride. Ive been using various other electric bikes (CAKE, EM, Ultra Bee, HEAVILY MODDED Light bees) to chase my son around as he has started racing in in turn gotten me back on the bike. He is getting faster and now i am up against a wall....do i get a 125, 150 or 250, 2 stroke to chase him around and have some fun. (Not super interested in a 450 or even a 4 stroke for that matter just because of all the maintenance i have to do on them the way i ride)....Or do i take delivery on the stark so i only have 3 bikes to maintain....

Hard enough to maintain these fire breathing 50's and 65's, last thing i need is my own bike to deal with. The appeal of the electric for a moto dad or vet that wants to rip laps and relive some glory with his kids that are younger but outrunning the a lot of the big boys on the track is REAL.

I really wanna hear someone ride it and tear it apart...A REAL to the point review...it wont stop me from buying and im not looking for slander either......we all honestly wanna know the worst of the worst...not the best of the best. Good things are easy to live with....tell me the bad and ill decide if i can live with those.

From everything ive seen it would be perfect for 20-30 laps of roosting the little guy and watcing him the rest of the day.