Flux Performance - eMX startup from Europe

[Marko_Flux]

Thanks, so first thing's first, here's the video of the trail ride range test:

We strive to be the EV company that's honest with their customers.

Having a modular battery is doable, but everything in life is a compromise. Dual battery means running them in parallel, so you'll have double the cells in series, meaning a much more expensive BMS combined, compared to a single battery with equal specs. There's ofc also considerations for extra weight with doubling housings, fixtures etc.

Our team's background is in aerospace, so we have a competitive advantage in the higher performance spectrum. There's only one competitor there today, while on the light off-roader side there's a bunch (KTM, Surron, Dust?, etc). Some of those are already good, others can be made better with a suspension swap. Components are readily available off-the-shelf. It seems advantages there would be razor thin and the Asians can beat us on price. There would be some willing to pay a premium for more, but generally a beginner/playbike is much more price sensitive than something like the Varg, where you want the best. At lower power levels, a high voltage system's cons start to outweigh the pros. Those are my thoughts at least.

The Primo has a swappable battery, you can yank it out from the side. It's not optimised right now with a quick release system, but you just undo the bolts, detach 2 connectors and out it goes.
My question for you guys is would you be buying a second battery at a €6-7k price point? Or would a higher range and faster charging solve the shortcomings in a better way?

 

[Philip]

My question for you guys is would you be buying a second battery at a €6-7k price point? Or would a higher range and faster charging solve the shortcomings in a better way?

Stark has been asking us this question for the last 2 years. They mentioned a €5K figure and a tedious battery swapping procedure.

They decided to go the second route. That route is taken. The pros haven't switched to riding Stark bikes yet, but various amateurs are complaining about the weight and the range. So, the first route is still available.

 

[Philip]

Having a modular battery is doable, but everything in life is a compromise. Dual battery means running them in parallel, so you'll have double the cells in series, meaning a much more expensive BMS combined, compared to a single battery with equal specs. There's ofc also considerations for extra weight with doubling housings, fixtures etc.

Dual batteries is the only way I see how one bike can be used for 20-minute rides and 50% power or for 1-hour races with full power. Somebody will figure it out. It makes no sense to have to carry an 80 lbs battery with you if you are using less than half of it per practice session.

Put several small BMS'es inside the batteries. Or install a 200-pin connector to connect one 2p 100s battery to another 2p 100s battery.

 

[Philip]

I have just re-read Page 1 of this thread. You, @Marko_Flux, have addressed every single item on our multiple wish lists!

I hope a half-sized battery packs are coming that @rayivers asked for, along with the reverse that @Motophyllic wanted so much.

I must specifically quote this post here:

Okay, Marko. Give them a fake clutch lever that would kill the motor if pulled and loop out the bike if dropped!

But I would rather have my LHRB there. It can also be used in whiskey throttle situations, although I have not used it this way yet.

Please tell us more about how you appear to have combined an electronic clutch and a LHRB in one left-hand lever.

I understand how this can be done. Mechanically, it is not difficult. But if I am cornering in a slow rut, pulling the left lever, and opening the throttle at the same time... how would the bike know if:

A) I am using the left lever as a rear brake and the bike needs to give me the motor power in order to stabilize the bike?

or

B) I am using the left lever as a clutch and the bike needs to ignore my right hand's request for power when the left lever is pulled and then give me an extra burst of power when I release the left lever?

 

[Philip]

It seems like, in order to avoid any misunderstanding and confusion, two left levers would be needed.

However... Australian Clake has experience with making single-lever clutch/brake systems for gas bikes.

This can be done for electric bikes too with fewer mechanical components.

One thing that is missing on electric bikes is the engine BRAAA-A-AP. Besides brining smiles to riders' faces and grimaces to neighbors' faces, it serves as a feedback/warning as to what is going to happen if you dump the left lever. Please add a big speaker instead of a horn and bring back the BRAAA-A-AP, @Marko_Flux !!!

 

[Redwolf]

At the present rate of progress, this should be ready for market just about in time to replace my worn out Alta... I had best put some additional effort into wearing my Alta out.

 

[Marko_Flux]

We aim to please! With the Primo being a development platform we have the unique opportunity of testing all these things to gauge technical feasibility and rider benefit before a design freeze makes it difficult.

We indeed have reverse, that's an easy one to do: FluxMoto on Instagram: "Reverse! Do you need it? Talking to riders this is a request that came up, it's easy enough to implement, so we made it happen. It sounds strange at first, but there are several situations where it's nice to have it. What do you think?"

For combining regen+clutch we're trying essentially a rule that says "if gas is on, then be a clutch" "if gas is off, then be a brake", for which we have a patent pending too. That's simplified a bit, as you can play with edge cases, retentions, transitions etc.
In the end it's just a digital signal output lever, you can use just one function at a time or switch between them. Or use it for making braaaap sounds. We do have 12V available for a Bose speaker to mount at your convenience.

On that note, might be cool to have a 12V output available for whatever people come up with on the production bike.

 

[Motophyllic]

Thank you @Philip for reminding them of reverse. It looks like it’s gonna have it

 

[F451]

On that note, might be cool to have a 12V output available for whatever people come up with on the production bike.

A 12v output would be a great feature, it would allow installing lighting kits, road legal lights (for locations where its possible to street license off road bikes), and of course cell phone chargers. I'm sure there's other uses for it too.

 

[Beagle]

Haven't been looking at their Insta for a while, looks to be going pretty well for them. They're advertising a new 7.9 kWh capacity, that would be NUTS. Fast charge as well.

FluxMoto on Instagram: "The reactions after trying the Primo 🗣️ #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #testing #testimonial"

266 likes, 7 comments - fluxmotorcycles on January 22, 2024: "The reactions after trying the Primo 🗣️ #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #testing #testimonial".

www.instagram.com

FluxMoto on Instagram: "Corner speed? 🫣 @lukamilec237 #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #berm #wallride"

290 likes, 10 comments - fluxmotorcycles on January 24, 2024: "Corner speed? 🫣 @lukamilec237 #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #berm #wallride".

www.instagram.com

FluxMoto on Instagram: "Marko rode the Primo in a fast enduro race this weekend in Italy, here’s what he had to say: “I wanted to experience how the Primo does in a race environment, so we decided to apply last minute and see what happens. I did the

185 likes, 9 comments - fluxmotorcycles on February 19, 2024: "Marko rode the Primo in a fast enduro race this weekend in Italy, here’s what he had to say: “I wanted to experience how the Primo does in a race environment, so we decided to apply last minute and see what happens. I did the free...

www.instagram.com

3 competitive brands (Stark, Flux, Honda, maybe Arctic Leopard) would probably be enough to get interesting electric-only classes in championships reluctant to mix electrics with ICE.

Really cool to have public testing, I wonder what would be the intended release date nowadays?

 

[Marko_Flux]

Haven't been looking at their Insta for a while, looks to be going pretty well for them. They're advertising a new 7.9 kWh capacity, that would be NUTS. Fast charge as well.

FluxMoto on Instagram: "The reactions after trying the Primo 🗣️ #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #testing #testimonial"

266 likes, 7 comments - fluxmotorcycles on January 22, 2024: "The reactions after trying the Primo 🗣️ #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #testing #testimonial".

www.instagram.com

FluxMoto on Instagram: "Corner speed? 🫣 @lukamilec237 #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #berm #wallride"

290 likes, 10 comments - fluxmotorcycles on January 24, 2024: "Corner speed? 🫣 @lukamilec237 #fluxmoto #fluxprimo #EV #motocross #dirtbike #berm #wallride".

www.instagram.com

FluxMoto on Instagram: "Marko rode the Primo in a fast enduro race this weekend in Italy, here’s what he had to say: “I wanted to experience how the Primo does in a race environment, so we decided to apply last minute and see what happens. I did the

185 likes, 9 comments - fluxmotorcycles on February 19, 2024: "Marko rode the Primo in a fast enduro race this weekend in Italy, here’s what he had to say: “I wanted to experience how the Primo does in a race environment, so we decided to apply last minute and see what happens. I did the free...

www.instagram.com

3 competitive brands (Stark, Flux, Honda, maybe Arctic Leopard) would probably be enough to get interesting electric-only classes in championships reluctant to mix electrics with ICE.

Really cool to have public testing, I wonder what would be the intended release date nowadays?

We're progressing and yes, the 7.9 is real.

The idea is to reveal the production bike end of 2024 and start deliveries Q4 of 2025. Ofc there's many milestones between here and there, so subject to change.

In a couple of weeks you should have a review of the Primo from a US journalist, to give you an independent opinion of the current performance.

 

[Beagle]

We're progressing and yes, the 7.9 is real.

The idea is to reveal the production bike end of 2024 and start deliveries Q4 of 2025. Ofc there's many milestones between here and there, so subject to change.

In a couple of weeks you should have a review of the Primo from a US journalist, to give you an independent opinion of the current performance.

Thanks for the news.

I'm guessing 13% increased capacity mainly comes from new cells, that's pretty cool for EV manufacturers to have suppliers regularly improving their cell capacity.

A first review of the current prototype would be great, just as Tucker Neary happened to be in Europe.

 

[Marko_Flux]

Thanks for the news.

I'm guessing 13% increased capacity mainly comes from new cells, that's pretty cool for EV manufacturers to have suppliers regularly improving their cell capacity.

A first review of the current prototype would be great, just as Tucker Neary happened to be in Europe.

It's no secret any high performance motorcycle is using Molicel these days and yes, most of it is due to the P50B, with some extra improvements structurally. Expect others to have a similar bump soon, as the cells allegedly hit mass production this year, we just get a bigger one, as we start with more cells to begin with (more cells = more gains).
Tucker was Near-y

 

[Beagle]

Crazy now with 5.0 Ah it will only take 56 cells to get 1 kWh, a couple years ago with 4.2 Ah it would have required 66 cells.

So yeah using more cells, say 40, the gains become larger and larger.

Electric dirtbikes reaching almost 8 kWh

 

[Beagle]

Indeed Tucker was Near-y

Great to see the progress in this bike, the lack of clutch is often mentioned as a worry when discussing powerful electric bikes, that looks cool.

The Varg should have some competition by the end of 2025 or 2026 which can only be a good thing for us riders. Of course by that time Varg 2.0 might not be too far. Exciting times indeed.

 

[Beagle]

Nice vid, even if it's only one test on a handful of laps it's promising.

Title is clickbait (customer price should be quite close and Stark got Eicher motors money 3 years after their creation, and 6 months after their huge media day so it was not used for early development, more for production) but cool video nonetheless.

Keep up the good work Flux! And keep us posted

 

[Marko_Flux]

Nice vid, even if it's only one test on a handful of laps it's promising.

Title is clickbait (customer price should be quite close and Stark got Eicher motors money 3 years after their creation, and 6 months after their huge media day so it was not used for early development, more for production) but cool video nonetheless.

Keep up the good work Flux! And keep us posted

Thanks! Gotta have that juicy bait. Nonetheless it's fair to say 2 orders of magnitude more resources even at the 2021 launch phase and it's pitting a half-billion dollar company against a startup. My take home here is the performance we're achieving is competitive with the best in the world already, providing empirical proof for our tech. Our bike doesn't have A kit suspension or unobtainium parts, has a slightly bigger battery and same size, so it's a fair fight IMO. I actually expected to be a little slower, the results were a nice surprise. I understand the limitations of the test, but I'm happy to take the win

We're taking a little different route, first working on specific solutions inside the drivetrain/battery, instead of starting with the looks. Might be harder to sell the vision, but I think that's where the real challenge is.

I also understand the grand canyon between a prototype and series production, but this is literally the first shot. We're so limited right now, there's a lot more we can do with the appropriate resources and really deliver a production bike that's on another level.

 

[Beagle]

I like your take on this and appreciate you're taking some time to participate in the discussion here, it's great .

Since that's kinda the topic here, I'm gonna push my luck and try some indiscreet questions

It looks like you and your team got the engineering part figured out or at least well set in the right direction (though designing a production frame might not be trivial) so I guess your next challenge must be money, do you have some important funding rounds lined up? Generally speaking, start-ups getting the scientific/engineering part is prerequisite but the financial part can be tricky, especially if it's not in the original team background training.

Honestly I'm still amazed by Stark scaling up in the 10 000s annual capacity so fast. Production wise, what's your vision, would you rather go all by yourself like Stark or would you be open to partnership with industrial players with existing manufacturing capacity?

I know you won't spill trade secrets on a public forum but maybe you can throw me a bone to satisfy my curiosity

 

[Marko_Flux]

I like your take on this and appreciate you're taking some time to participate in the discussion here, it's great .

Since that's kinda the topic here, I'm gonna push my luck and try some indiscreet questions

It looks like you and your team got the engineering part figured out or at least well set in the right direction (though designing a production frame might not be trivial) so I guess your next challenge must be money, do you have some important funding rounds lined up? Generally speaking, start-ups getting the scientific/engineering part is prerequisite but the financial part can be tricky, especially if it's not in the original team background training.

Honestly I'm still amazed by Stark scaling up in the 10 000s annual capacity so fast. Production wise, what's your vision, would you rather go all by yourself like Stark or would you be open to partnership with industrial players with existing manufacturing capacity?

I know you won't spill trade secrets on a public forum but maybe you can throw me a bone to satisfy my curiosity

My pleasure, it's important for me to stay connected to the community.

Indeed the next major milestone is closing the funding round, it is the part we're least experienced in, but getting into the pace of things. Proof points such as videos like this and reservations definitely help. I'll push back on the prerequisite, as I'd argue most EV startups work on design and bring no meaningful technological work to the table. Frame is very important and difficult, but we have more partners in the background than we disclose in public. At this stage the cost vs. benefit wasn't there. In the next stage we have Primo's anchor points and having a clean sheet brings many gains.

Production is super hard at the start, once you have the machine oiled, it's "easier" to scale. Another big consideration is failure rate and cost of warranty, which is not public. Some veterans might correct me, but to my knowledge Alta had the capacity of 5k/year at the end (multi-shift), it just got epsteined before putting it to a year's work.

"all by yourself" is a grayscale, we're looking to have final assembly and batpack mfg in house as the mission critical parts. We wouldn't do casting or motor winding for instance. I'm a big believer in vertical integration, initially R&D, later taking in parts of the supply chain that make the most sense at the time. Hope this answers you well enough.

 

[Beagle]

Awesome, thanks Marko, best of luck to you.

Crazy to think that Honda presented their electric prototype in 2017, that Stark was funded a couple years later but already released their bike, and that Flux, funded in 2020 (or 2021 ?) also stands a chance to deliver before big H.
Big OEMs obviously have the tools but lack the commitment and by definition are more risk-averse than EV start-ups. Now the fact that in the car world they're still catching up to Tesla 10 years later shows that if you get a headstart you have a decent chance to keep growing even when the legacy manufacturers jump in.