Dust Moto

That's indeed true.

But so close to production i think that ship has sailed.

Edit: But hey even with things going pretty bad at team HD the sums om money they can play with are enormous compared to what a startup can dream of.
Might be just the injection they need and just bring the numbers Livewire needs. Now place some landmines and loitering drones to off each and every HD manager that thinks about setting foot in the direction of this company.
 
What's more likely:

buying Dust will save Livewire from bankruptcy
or
being bought by Livewire will end Dust

?

Hold on, Livewire sales are on fire, +176% in Q1 26 compared to Q1 25. That's right, they've sold 91 motorcycles in the first 3 months this year, which is a terrific improvement from 33 sales last year. Imagine that, selling as much as 1 motorcycle every day, oh the glory.

Wishing the best for Dust guys, just not convinced it's going with Livewire, hopefully they prove me wrong.
 
B2B News | LiveWire has made its first-ever acquisition, snapping up the assets of Dust Moto to push deeper into the electric off-road segment. LiveWire says the deal accelerates its ambitions beyMay be an image of motorcycle and dirt bikeond the tarmac, building on a journey it traces back to its STACYC kids’ balance bike brand a decade ago.
With Dust Moto now folded in, LiveWire is moving the startup’s electric dirt bike platform toward production, backed by its own engineering resources, manufacturing scale, and global sales and service network. More at THE PACK: https://thepack.news/newsflash-livewire-group-acquires.../
 
I don't think any American company will be able to make a go with Electric Motorcycles of any kind. It is not an accident that Stark is actually making a go of it and Alta with many years head start ended up dead.

The US does not have a motorcycle culture. Motorcycles are not considered part of transportation they are considered recreational vehicles and are not part of the general American transportation fabric. They are either outlaw, fad, toy, or sub-culture. And even Harley was never really a mainstream product or real transportation. Stark is steeped in the European tradition of motorcycle culture and Europeans have good use cases, distance models, and a motorcycle culture to grow Electric Motorcycles.

Most of us here in the US who are into motorcycles besides Harley are used to Asian and European purpose built products. Also the uptake of American E-cars has mostly stalled out if not died in many cases across the country. The American producers just didn't make anything but over priced E-Yuppie vehicles that were more like a fad-badge than transportation. Given that, my guess is that Dust Moto will like end up Alta more like Dust Bin Moto.
 
I don't think any American company will be able to make a go with Electric Motorcycles of any kind. It is not an accident that Stark is actually making a go of it and Alta with many years head start ended up dead.

The US does not have a motorcycle culture. Motorcycles are not considered part of transportation they are considered recreational vehicles and are not part of the general American transportation fabric. They are either outlaw, fad, toy, or sub-culture. And even Harley was never really a mainstream product or real transportation. Stark is steeped in the European tradition of motorcycle culture and Europeans have good use cases, distance models, and a motorcycle culture to grow Electric Motorcycles.

Most of us here in the US who are into motorcycles besides Harley are used to Asian and European purpose built products. Also the uptake of American E-cars has mostly stalled out if not died in many cases across the country. The American producers just didn't make anything but over priced E-Yuppie vehicles that were more like a fad-badge than transportation. Given that, my guess is that Dust Moto will like end up Alta more like Dust Bin Moto.

I don't think the problem with Alta was the USA, it was HD.

I think the Varg could have been done in the USA, but probably not Silicon Valley as it is too expensive.
 
I think the problem was American corporate culture.
It's a lott about here and now. While building new motorcycle brands is a lott about long term. Stark has Swedish leadership culture wich is a lott more long term.

HD is swinging around their strategies more often than anyone else and it's pretty much line goes down for years.

Zero has that problem to lesser extent, but them as well had some really shortsided design decisions in their bikes.
 
I think the problem was American corporate culture.
It's a lott about here and now. While building new motorcycle brands is a lott about long term. Stark has Swedish leadership culture wich is a lott more long term.
You are making a lot of assumptions.
 
I am indeed. But it's a sad pattern we see.
In the past years in all kind of branches we've seen American investment companies taking over businesses, stripping them for parts and letting them die.

Also we had a hype of American'ism here in Europe. Part of that was companies adapting to very short distance planning and a focus on shares value above actual profit. With it came safety regulations that had nothing to do with safety but more with sue ability. Caused quite the uproar in workforces here.
Luckely a side effect of the clash between gouvernments is that companies stop trying to be American.
 
I am indeed. But it's a sad pattern we see.
In the past years in all kind of branches we've seen American investment companies taking over businesses, stripping them for parts and letting them die.

Also we had a hype of American'ism here in Europe. Part of that was companies adapting to very short distance planning and a focus on shares value above actual profit. With it came safety regulations that had nothing to do with safety but more with sue ability. Caused quite the uproar in workforces here.
Luckely a side effect of the clash between gouvernments is that companies stop trying to be American.

It is indeed a pattern, but there are exceptions to it.

There are also patterns in Europe that are bad for development of new things. In general, the germans are too risk averse and there are too many rules. For example, you cannot have an electric bike that has both pedals and a twist throttle. Ask me how I know :)
 
I don't think the problem with Alta was the USA, it was HD.

I think the Varg could have been done in the USA, but probably not Silicon Valley as it is too expensive.
I think it could have been done but likely wouldn't succeed. Typically we don't measure success in America by products it is measured in sizable profit margins how much it makes the shareholders. Even within the things that do have a culture for -- like cars -- we walk away from it if the profit margins and growth aren't there.

On top of that we have tremendous resources what is the heartbeat of production for less resource blessed places we can just simply walk away from. The motorcycle is the epitome of this, we never needed it for transportation we had the means, energy, and culture to skip right by that everyone has a car was the goal. If you look at Europe, Asia, South America, or Africa it is not like that.

I don't mean this in a bad way, it is why we are constantly innovating and our economy is always growing and it is how we are somewhat different from other modern economies that often plateau and are less innovative. Being first, getting the innovation, winning the high margin initial market that is what we are good at. Efficiency and capitalism work well in the US and dovetail, our productive culture is largely about getting more and more from less and less.

Of course there are always exceptions, but I think in the case of motorcycles size of the market, profit margin, and culture all conspire against an American badge.
 
It is indeed a pattern, but there are exceptions to it.

There are also patterns in Europe that are bad for development of new things. In general, the germans are too risk averse and there are too many rules. For example, you cannot have an electric bike that has both pedals and a twist throttle. Ask me how I know :)
Very true as well. With us it's much easier to see cost spiral out of control for example. Here is was just looking at the problem regarding American attempts at building and selling bikes ;)

In all of Europe incluiding Germany you can very much have an electric bike with throttle and pedals. However you cannot have it as a bicycle. As soon as it has a throttle it's at the very least a moped. Wich needs a licenseplate, insurance and a riderslicense. If it exceeds 45km/h it is a motorcycle. And needs to have all of the above but for a motorcycle and in most countries has to pay roadtax as well.
I actually think that's good. The EU doesn't see a difference between E and ICE when it comes to classifying a bike.
 
I think it could have been done but likely wouldn't succeed. Typically we don't measure success in America by products it is measured in sizable profit margins how much it makes the shareholders. Even within the things that do have a culture for -- like cars -- we walk away from it if the profit margins and growth aren't there.

On top of that we have tremendous resources what is the heartbeat of production for less resource blessed places we can just simply walk away from. The motorcycle is the epitome of this, we never needed it for transportation we had the means, energy, and culture to skip right by that everyone has a car was the goal. If you look at Europe, Asia, South America, or Africa it is not like that.

I don't mean this in a bad way, it is why we are constantly innovating and our economy is always growing and it is how we are somewhat different from other modern economies that often plateau and are less innovative. Being first, getting the innovation, winning the high margin initial market that is what we are good at. Efficiency and capitalism work well in the US and dovetail, our productive culture is largely about getting more and more from less and less.

Of course there are always exceptions, but I think in the case of motorcycles size of the market, profit margin, and culture all conspire against an American badge.
Well your market is plenty big enough. Nearly all brands sell their bikes over there as well so there is demand.
You have plenty of resources and pretty cheap labour as well.

I agree that the ''ever more and higher'' and the ''right now'' is probably part of what makes it so hard so build good products on the size of bikes or cars. Especially when starting up it must be really hard because the lack of patience the corperate world seems to have.
But it's probably also on ''specsheet driven'' (American) over ''feeling driven''(European).

What we see in Europe is that American Cars/Bikes land bad here. Fit and finish is often well below what we consider to be the standard. On paper the specs (bragging rights) are always there, but the ''feel'' is actually a very important part here. Combine that with our streets being so much narrower and fuel so much more expensive that even when our gouvernments would subsidise American build cars they couldn't sell them in numbers here.
For example, my nephew is one of the only people i have ever seen that owns a Ford F150 (most sold car in the US?). He can't even park the thing in most town streets. At the supermarket he has to park with the freight trucks.
Tesla was very succesfull here for a while since the model looked quite good and people actually wanted EV's. However as soon as comparable cars from competitors started to show up sales dropped (even harder since the MAGA thing, but the trend was allready there). More expensive cars actually sell better because the Tesla's just feel cheap and people don't like that here when spending significant money.

Same goes for HD's bikes. Most of them are huge and only really work well in straight lines. And that is OK if the roads are more or less straight, but they aren't out here.
The Zero's are also a good example. I owned one and it was build to a pricepoint that would many Chinese bikes would feeled ashamed of themselves. All while charging premium. It also was great going straight, but when it came to cornering it was just ''off''.

All of the above doesn't even need to be 100% true. But this is how a lott of Europeans think of American products. And perception can just be enough to halt sales before people have even seen it in the flesh.

I think the American way of things is most suited for IT and other very fast moving markets. And that is where Europe struggles.
 
Very true as well. With us it's much easier to see cost spiral out of control for example. Here is was just looking at the problem regarding American attempts at building and selling bikes ;)

In all of Europe incluiding Germany you can very much have an electric bike with throttle and pedals. However you cannot have it as a bicycle. As soon as it has a throttle it's at the very least a moped. Wich needs a licenseplate, insurance and a riderslicense. If it exceeds 45km/h it is a motorcycle. And needs to have all of the above but for a motorcycle and in most countries has to pay roadtax as well.
I actually think that's good. The EU doesn't see a difference between E and ICE when it comes to classifying a bike.
Yes the American and European experiences are much different in that regard. In many suburban and rural areas in the US not all motorized vehicles have such strict government oversight. And it can vary by state. Outside of maybe Russia there is not really a comparable European experience to the US that I have experienced.

We also have a vast 4-wheel OHV culture and some states require registration others do not. In some places you can buy these things in big box stores with no government oversight at all. TBH I love that about America and it does have downsides of course.

Recently some states like California and Massachusetts have tried to enact European type rules and regulations but many of us feel that will hurt E adoption. If you have to deal with government rules, regs, and interference many folks will just opt for ICE.
 
Yes the American and European experiences are much different in that regard. In many suburban and rural areas in the US not all motorized vehicles have such strict government oversight. And it can vary by state. Outside of maybe Russia there is not really a comparable European experience to the US that I have experienced.

We also have a vast 4-wheel OHV culture and some states require registration others do not. In some places you can buy these things in big box stores with no government oversight at all. TBH I love that about America and it does have downsides of course.

Recently some states like California and Massachusetts have tried to enact European type rules and regulations but many of us feel that will hurt E adoption. If you have to deal with government rules, regs, and interference many folks will just opt for ICE.
One of the big reasons is that every car/motorcycle/quad/etc needs to be 3rd party insured. So that if you hit someone you aren't financially dead and the other party will be compensated anyways. To be insured it will need a licence plate.

Europe is more protecting people from themselves (for better or worse, i agree it's often over protecting as well).
I recently saw a video from someone who moved from the US to Europe and described a feeling of constant ''fear'' dropping of the shoulders she never had been aware off.
Alledgedly in the US you can be 1 accident, medical issue or lay-off away from bankrupty. Over here that's pretty much unimaginable. That's also one of the reasons every vehicle that can do someone harm has to be 3rd party insured.

Over here E is more promoted with less taxes but while having roughly te same rules.
Also a very fun maze in the law is that E bikes power is measured in continuous power. Making the Stark (and most others like this Dust) having below 11kW and thus having it A1 license legal. Or way faster bikes comming in just under 35kW so A2 legal. We actually start seeing you people moving to E bikes for that reason.

What doesn't help is that your fuel is still cheap as @#$%. $4.50 per gallon wich is roughly €1.00/liter is absurdly cheap and i have never seen such prices in my lifetime here. 20 years ago we we're over €1.50 per liter ($6.75 per gallon).
At the moment i pay at very cheap fuel stations €2.35 per liter ($10.33 per gallon).
With E bikes we pay €0,25/kWh or ''€0,50 per liter'' so they make so much more sense here.
 
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