Dust Moto

[fsfs]

Our motorcycle market might seem big but it is relative. Here as many SxS/UTVs as motorcycles ~(500,000) are typically sold per year. In Europe probably not even 50k of those are sold. Those are double the entry price of a motorcycle. American and Canadian brands are very competitive in that market(Polaris and Bombardier) and margins/features can be very extensive.

And interestingly, North American manufacturers are not that competitive in the less popular ATVs that are lower margin more like traditional motorcycles (they are sometimes even called bikes here). On top of that imagine the rig you need for a UTV you are not talking about a simple carrier for that. It is a large vehicle (like your nephew's F-150) with a large trailer.

Families here have whole UTV OHV experiences (sometimes more than one imagine that trailer) that probably are under the radar to most Europeans. You won't be seeing those rigs in your European town streets. Here in the US on weekends they are relatively common. That is what I mean by a cultural difference.

The US is largely energy independent and petro is relatively inexpensive too so EVs have to make a case against that here. Tesla and others relied on government incentives not the real market. It is not about energy for most Americans and our country as a whole, we have plenty of our own petroleum. It is about often about problems with distance/range also when it comes to E. The US is a large spread out country. Even many of our modern cites are drive arounds not a traditional walking/mass transit cities like New York, Paris, Amsterdam, or London.

Europeans may see problems with fit and finish in American products and that is true. But European products like cars here are seen as abysmal in reliability the worst in almost any rating category (like Bultaco gone mad). Even renowned Euro brands like VW and Mercedes suck worse than American brands for reliability and lets not get started on British or Italian shit -- awful not just bad. Range Rover is a running yuppie joke here.

Same with appliances Euro products get yuppie tag and then a yuppie price tag for outrageous service costs and terrible reliability. Americans will take an ugly noisy Whirlpool that works for years to the overpriced Bosch or Electrolux that is broken and needs service like an overprice Fiat within a year of ownership. Certainly European products can't compare any better to Asian products than American products. Maybe we just suck in different categories.

I spent 30 years of my life in the USA and then moved to Europe (Croatia) about 20 years ago. What you consider to be a European car in the USA is a different machine than what you get in Europe. Even if you buy the "same" Japanese or Korean car in the USA or Europe it will not have the same engine or gearbox. I considered buying a Japanese car in the USA and bringing it to Croatia because when returning you were allowed to bring in your possessions free of tax/tariff. Even with manual gearbox it would be a different engine and transmission. I gave up on that idea due to spare parts headaches.

The reliability of expensive luxury brands is terrible here in Europe. BMW is a money pit on both sides of the pond. I went with Japanese (made in Hungary) and it has never failed me in 20 years. I also had a Skoda Octavia 1.9TDI that I let my friend drive until it got totaled in an accident -- absolutely reliable car. The 1.9TDI engine is bulletproof.

Skodas are basically VWs but don't immediately get the "latest and greatest", meaning you get a VW engine, gearbox and other components from 2 years ago that have been "debugged". Cheaper and more reliable. I suppose there is no appetite in the USA for a 1.0L 3 cylinder petrol with a manual transmission.

With the new stuff you have to be careful. Go with a manual gearbox. Stay away from wet timing belts. Just do your homework and you will get a reliable point A to B vehicle. If you want luxury and bells and whistle be prepared to pay the price.

I know less about the white goods internals, but I suspect that might be different too. For example European washing machines are almost always front load. They also have a built in water heater. This gives space savings (you can stack a dryer on top for example) and cleaner laundry because the water remains hot throughout the wash cycle. But, it is added complexity. That said, I have had really good luck with washing machines here.

 

[Beagle]

Is a Triumph made in Thailand a euro or asian bike, is a Toyota made in France a Japanese or euro car?

Do you care in which country it has been designed or maybe where it has been assembled?

Does it matter where the chassis materials come from or maybe more the electronic parts?

Or is it about ownership, did all KTMs turn indian the moment Bajaj saved them from bankruptcy?

Don't even start to think about planes

 

[fsfs]

Very true as well. With us it's much easier to see cost spiral out of control for example. Here is was just looking at the problem regarding American attempts at building and selling bikes

In all of Europe incluiding Germany you can very much have an electric bike with throttle and pedals. However you cannot have it as a bicycle. As soon as it has a throttle it's at the very least a moped. Wich needs a licenseplate, insurance and a riderslicense. If it exceeds 45km/h it is a motorcycle. And needs to have all of the above but for a motorcycle and in most countries has to pay roadtax as well.
I actually think that's good. The EU doesn't see a difference between E and ICE when it comes to classifying a bike.

Well, it didn't fall into any category.

Over 4kW (it was about 10kW) and faster than 45km/h... This takes it out of the S-Pedelec and E-moped range and put it in the motorcycle range. But then you are not allowed to have pedals on it. The whole selling point was that it was kind of like a Cake Kalk but with a pinion gearbox and pedals where you could also add some power with your legs. But a motorcycle is not allowed to have pedals. So the prototype is built, it works just fine, but it is not legal.

Edit: Yet a Varg SM is legal with A1 license.. you must ask yourself:

 

[Beagle]

Interesting, what was the point of adding pedals to the equivalent of a 125cc motorcycle, was it in case it ran out of juice to reduce range anxiety?

 

[fsfs]

Interesting, what was the point of adding pedals to the equivalent of a 125cc motorcycle, was it in case it ran out of juice to reduce range anxiety?

It was somewhat lighter than a cake kalk with similar (but not quite equal) off-road capability. The main purpose of the pedals is to enable you to also be able to get a physical/aerobic workout on the same bike. It was too difficult to pedal significant distance without using the motor, but if you were missing a bit of range the pedals came in handy. But, the primary reason is so that you can maintain fitness while still having a pretty capable bike.

 

[Theo]

Is a Triumph made in Thailand a euro or asian bike, is a Toyota made in France a Japanese or euro car?

Do you care in which country it has been designed or maybe where it has been assembled?

Does it matter where the chassis materials come from or maybe more the electronic parts?

Or is it about ownership, did all KTMs turn indian the moment Bajaj saved them from bankruptcy?

Don't even start to think about planes

This is good scientific thinking: how strong is the statistical correlation between value of the goods and continent of origin and what kind of relationship can explain that correlation? (causation? are there confounding variables?) but, first of all, which one should be considered as the continent of origin?
A company contemplating the purchase of products would think like that.
But aside for this, when talking about motorcycles, a big part of the value is very subjective. If you really love the feeling you get while riding one or even just looking at it after you park it, you may accept worse reliability, for example.

 

[Chaconne]

IMO you guys care too much about the origin of goods. As a general rule of thumb, you can for example believe that a new model of motorcycle from a Japanese brand is likely to be more reliable than a new model from an European brand, but for known models it turns out that Japanese bikes can have typical problems that the European counterparts don't have. Personally, I don't care too much whether the brand is American, European or else or if it works with gasoline, electrons or diesel: if it suits my needs, it's OK.
In other words, IMO the statistical correlation between continent of origin and value is weaker than you've said.

I pretty much agree with your overall point. And though we were discussing origin in relation to Dust, I think it is once again worth pointing out that there is a big difference in the motorcycle culture in Europe (and probably much of the world) and the US. And I think that rather than any origin story is really much more important to understand than where something is made especially in today's market.

Also, though a good number of motorcycles are sold here due to our large population with large disposable incomes typically they are not purchased for transportation and never really have been and that fact drives much of the American view of and market for motorcycles as well as other OHVs.