Battery care, some things I thought you guys should know.

[ElectroBraap]

Hey guys,

I was in another thread last week and noticed people asking about battery care. I have raced competitive electric RC trucks for years and I learned quite a lot about lithium battery care. I did some light research and it looks like what i have learned from RC trucks should definitely apply to the battery technology in the Redshift. Two unfortunate truths are fully charging your bike is going to reduce its life span, and fully discharging will reduce its lifespan. Also from what I have learned, leaving this kind of battery in a fully charged state or fully discharged state for long periods of time can cause damage to the battery in the immediate.

Here is a source with tons of technical (but easy to understand) information regarding this topic: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

So what should you do?! That is a good question and i'm going to be covering it in one of my future videos . I'm open to opinions, so lets discuss!


-Electro

 

[allesad]

I agree. Telsa has the same Philopshy. Max "range" Charging (more than 3-4 times in a row) creates a warning...e.g "battery life will be impacted". I have 75K miles (4 years) on my Model S, and have only lost 3% of the max range. I charge it to 75% capacity every night.

 

[Mark911]

Thanks for that link - tons of info there! I have two questions I've been unable to find a definitive answer on for a long time now:

1) does RC li-po have a significantly higher discharge C rate than li-ion per unit weight?

2) can it be used safely in large (5-6kWh) packs? It seems most of the horror stories online involve non-BMS batteries charged or discharged incorrectly.

My interest is regarding minimum-weight packs for race bikes, not normal sensible stuff.

To make an educated analysis you need several more variables, capacity, volume and nominal voltage. Knowing nominal voltage, capacity, C rating, weight, and volume are the absolute minimum. If something looks promising after that then other parameters like max and min voltages, voltage droop, leakage, packaging, durability, heat dissipation, safety, cell life, etc can be examined.

 

[snydes]

Is it possible our Altas aren’t actually charging to 100% even though they tell us they are for this reason? Similar to how they are not really dead when you run the battery down?

 

[ElectroBraap]

Is it possible our Altas aren’t actually charging to 100% even though they tell us they are for this reason? Similar to how they are not really dead when you run the battery down?

One can hope! I'd love to go down to Alta in Brisbane and get a tour & ask questions about stuff like this for a video. *COUGH* comon alta *COUGH*

 

[allesad]

ElectroBraap, I have tour scheduled in Brisbane! I have a vacation planned in SFO and am staying in Brisbane, so I figured why not ask for a tour. It's scheduled for June 7th. So send me your questions....

 

[ElectroBraap]

ElectroBraap, I have tour scheduled in Brisbane! I have a vacation planned in SFO and am staying in Brisbane, so I figured why not ask for a tour. It's scheduled for June 7th. So send me your questions....

That's awesome man, I hope you have a good time! I called Alta today and asked them if they would be okay with me filming a tour. They are going to get back to me on that part haha. Fingers crossed.

-Electro

 

[ElectroBraap]

Has anyone noticed any loss in battery life btw? Any 2017 bikes rolling around here?

-Electro

 

[Josh402]

I somewhat doubt loss of battery longevity is going to be noticeable until these bikes get a ton of miles and ride time on them. So far, my '18 MX is at 150 miles and no way I can tell at the moment.

I do wonder though if fully charging it right after riding, and letting it sit for 6 or 7 days does anything to the battery.

 

[ElectroBraap]

I somewhat doubt loss of battery longevity is going to be noticeable until these bikes get a ton of miles and ride time on them. So far, my '18 MX is at 150 miles and no way I can tell at the moment.

I do wonder though if fully charging it right after riding, and letting it sit for 6 or 7 days does anything to the battery.

I put about 550 miles on my MXR so far and all seems well. As for leaving it fully charged. I know I won't be after what I've seen. Ive ruined quite a few lithium packs in my years haha. Granted Lipo and LiIon aren't exactly the same. I'm still going to play it safe.

-Electro

 

[Mark911]

Is it possible our Altas aren’t actually charging to 100% even though they tell us they are for this reason? Similar to how they are not really dead when you run the battery down?

Another reason why owners should be able to A) know the max voltage Alta is charging the cells to relative to the cell mfg recommendations, and B) give owners the option to push the voltage limits at their own risk using tuning software.

With respect to battery pack degradation there are simple calculations already performed by the BMS (Coulomb Counting, etc). All that's needed is a comparison of these measurements over time to determine the health of the pack. It's probably already being done, we just don't have access to the numbers.

With respect to increased performance (depends how one defines performance) we can already electronically tune our ICE bike to the point of blowing up and you don't hear anyone crying about it. So why not allow us to do the same with our Altas? They can put a cap on certain safety related parameters so the pack/motor/inverter can't start on fire up but if I want to max my settings out for a race here or there why not? Do you think Alta's not already doing this with Darryn Durham or Josh Hills bike? You bet they are.

If they're worried they can provide big blinking caution messages warning about the detrimental affects of changing the stock settings just like every other mfg.
On the other hand, if I don't care about absolute capacity and don't want to worry about keeping the pack topped off, I could lower the thresholds and sleep happy knowing my pack will last a few more charge cycles. It can go both ways.

With the stock data logging capability I could look at my cell voltages and temperatures after each moto and adjust accordingly. If I'd like to combine map 2 braking with map 4 throttle response I should be able to do this.

There's a whole new world of custom tuning, diagnosis, and data collection just a software release away. That's one of the reasons I bought this bike in the first place! I'm getting impatient . . . . .

 

[snydes]

Has anyone noticed any loss in battery life btw? Any 2017 bikes rolling around here?

-Electro

@Butch has one of the oldest 17’s in circulation, and as far as I know probably the most hours/miles. @Ben990 is also probably number 2 out of our members here that have spoken up.

 

[Butch]

@Butch has one of the oldest 17’s in circulation, and as far as I know probably the most hours/miles. @Ben990 is also probably number 2 out of our members here that have spoken up.

The odo currently shows 2753 miles, prolly 200 hours. I did not have an hour meter the first year. No issues. The bike had a one year service last October 2017 at the dealer in SF. I think the factory guys did much of the work. I’ll post what was done. My bike is 019.

Edit: the mode selector switch failed, so that was replaced under warranty, and they did the DCCP harness.

 

[rtf]

Another reason why owners should be able to A) know the max voltage Alta is charging the cells to relative to the cell mfg recommendations, and B) give owners the option to push the voltage limits at their own risk using tuning software.

With respect to battery pack degradation there are simple calculations already performed by the BMS (Coulomb Counting, etc). All that's needed is a comparison of these measurements over time to determine the health of the pack. It's probably already being done, we just don't have access to the numbers.

With respect to increased performance (depends how one defines performance) we can already electronically tune our ICE bike to the point of blowing up and you don't hear anyone crying about it. So why not allow us to do the same with our Altas? They can put a cap on certain safety related parameters so the pack/motor/inverter can't start on fire up but if I want to max my settings out for a race here or there why not? Do you think Alta's not already doing this with Darryn Durham or Josh Hills bike? You bet they are.

If they're worried they can provide big blinking caution messages warning about the detrimental affects of changing the stock settings just like every other mfg.
On the other hand, if I don't care about absolute capacity and don't want to worry about keeping the pack topped off, I could lower the thresholds and sleep happy knowing my pack will last a few more charge cycles. It can go both ways.

With the stock data logging capability I could look at my cell voltages and temperatures after each moto and adjust accordingly. If I'd like to combine map 2 braking with map 4 throttle response I should be able to do this.

There's a whole new world of custom tuning, diagnosis, and data collection just a software release away. That's one of the reasons I bought this bike in the first place! I'm getting impatient . . . . .

To be fair, perhaps we should give Alta some time to iron everything out themselves before they give so much control to the end user. I fully agree with everything you're saying, but the tone of your post could be taken the wrong way. If I was Alta, a front runner in this technology that could change the way we ride forever, I would NOT hand over the keys to tuning so early on.

 

[snydes]

I agree.
This would be how it would go;
1. Owner pushes the limits of the technology
2. Owner posts all over social media how his bike melted down without mentioning the part that he tampered with the settings
4. News of this unreliable new technology spreads all over the internet

 

[ElectroBraap]

Another reason why owners should be able to A) know the max voltage Alta is charging the cells to relative to the cell mfg recommendations, and B) give owners the option to push the voltage limits at their own risk using tuning software.

With respect to battery pack degradation there are simple calculations already performed by the BMS (Coulomb Counting, etc). All that's needed is a comparison of these measurements over time to determine the health of the pack. It's probably already being done, we just don't have access to the numbers.

With respect to increased performance (depends how one defines performance) we can already electronically tune our ICE bike to the point of blowing up and you don't hear anyone crying about it. So why not allow us to do the same with our Altas? They can put a cap on certain safety related parameters so the pack/motor/inverter can't start on fire up but if I want to max my settings out for a race here or there why not? Do you think Alta's not already doing this with Darryn Durham or Josh Hills bike? You bet they are.

If they're worried they can provide big blinking caution messages warning about the detrimental affects of changing the stock settings just like every other mfg.
On the other hand, if I don't care about absolute capacity and don't want to worry about keeping the pack topped off, I could lower the thresholds and sleep happy knowing my pack will last a few more charge cycles. It can go both ways.

With the stock data logging capability I could look at my cell voltages and temperatures after each moto and adjust accordingly. If I'd like to combine map 2 braking with map 4 throttle response I should be able to do this.

There's a whole new world of custom tuning, diagnosis, and data collection just a software release away. That's one of the reasons I bought this bike in the first place! I'm getting impatient . . . . .

I 100% agree with you and am excited for the future. Ive been able to "tune" my RC trucks for quite some time. Motor timing, curves, engine breaking etc. Ive definitely fried a few trying to get too much out of it. Maybe it's something we'll get later as Alta may not want any bad PR. I can easily see some goon frying his bike and then throwing shade at alta.

-Electro

 

[Mark911]

Gear-heads like me simply can't leave well enough alone. We know we'll never have the physical talent to ever hope to get even a smidgen (technical term) of full potential out of any modern bike. So instead we've trained ourselves to use our minds and creativity instead. The satisfaction factor (remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs) is just as powerful. For me Gas bikes were getting boring . . . . buy a bike, put a pipe on it, do some airflow work, throw a few pistons and cams at it, fiddle with the EFI, etc, etc. Boring . . . . .

The Alta was like a new canvas with so many possibilities. It reminded me of the early seventies when we were cutting up our frames and moving our shocks up, hacking intake ports off and welding in reed cages, grinding boost ports into the cylinder and pistons, pulling springs out of our forks and running air. Things the original OEMs would NEVER approve of. Nothing was off limits! Did things bend, break and blow up. You bet! Happened to LOTs of people who realized it was either evolve or get left behind. And you didn't see the OEMs respond by making cylinders that couldn't be removed and modified or suspension that couldn't be re-valved.

The story is the same with the new electric technology. The only difference is the tools needed. Instead of a die grinder or welder the tools of necessity are the computer and application software. This is where Alta can either resist the natural process (like resisting change itself) or enable it by providing the "tools" folks like me need to make my ownership "experience" more meaningful.

 

[Philip]

+1. I remember re-sleeving my moped's cylinder, heating it up in my grandma's kitchen oven, then drilling and filing new ports in it. Soldering my own reed valve cages out of brass plates. Changing all the frame geometry with a hack saw and a welder to match the pictures in magazines.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

 

[snydes]

It’s going to happen at some point, now is too soon IMO.

 

[Motoride]

I have 2017 MX #26 with 1500 miles and recently purchase 240 volt Honda generator with digital voltage display. When I first got the generator the display showed around 2800 volts if I remember correctly then this past weekend charging after ride (50%) the voltage indicated 1600. I turned the bike off and restarted the charging but only came up to 1900 volts or so. I assume the Alta charger is fluxing for whatever reason. Strange?? I have noticed I do get much faster charging with 220 as compared before with 110 and now feel free to ride map 4. Ocassionaly I get slight power surge riding if it’s down to around 1/4.

I’ve had zero issues with bike except for front support cradle broke and Alta replace under warranty with updated design. And waiting for someone to make aftermarket triple clamps to replace the cheap triple clamps that I have to retoruque each ride.

Enjoy reading all the great information from the contributors from this website.