Creating the Alta successor: requesting your feedback

[gewoontim]

Hi all Alta owners,

First, let me introduce myself. My name is Tim Veldhuis, and I’m a student of the University of Twente in the Netherlands. Being addicted to motorcycles my whole life, in the beginning of 2017 I took the initiative with a friend to start a new electric racing team: Electric Superbike Twente. Our goal was to build a fully electric racing bike, like our competitors Nova Electric Racing from Delft and the University of Nottingham. We spend a whole year fulltime on this with a team of 15 students and created the Liion-GP. The journey was amazing, electric motorcycles open up a whole new world for engineers. We won the MotoE competition, even though there were not so much competitors. For more information, see our website: European Champions in Electric Racing.



Therefore, I made the choice to continue this journey and see whether I can help bring this technology to the off-road market. Why off-road? In my spare time I ride supermoto, and I see great chances in the supermoto and MX area. Noise limitations and environmental concerns are something that is really limiting the sports, in both the Netherlands and Belgium. We foresee that this is going to happen in more and more countries, and therefore we want to be in front of this problem.

I’m in the final year of my Master Industrial Design Engineering, so my first idea was to apply for an internship at Alta, but unfortunately as you all know the company went down, so this was not an option anymore. Together with a partner company from Electric Superbike, we decided to take on the challenge to come up with a reasonable alternative to the Alta bike. This will be a tough challenge, since we realize the Alta is engineered to perfection. From the point of part reduction, part functionality and pure performance. Therefore, we also will try to learn as much from the good and the bad points of the Alta. Not only of the product, but also their business strategy.

I will be doing research into the possibilities of creating and selling an electric motocross bike. But to realize this, I need some input from you. To discuss this, I created some questions for you.

1. Why did you choose this electric dirtbike over an internal combustion bike?
2. What do you like about the Alta?
3. What do you dislike about the Alta?
4. What problems did you run into at the track?
5. What additional features would you like?
   1. Some examples: more statistics, datalogging, launch control, easy to use settings, traction control, LHRB/rear pedal. What else?
6. What would make you upgrade from your Alta?

I would really appreciate your input and hope to make a contribution to the electric off-road market in the future. Because the future is going to be electrifying!

 

[Philip]

This is awesome, Tim! I want to help you as much as I can.

 

[Fog 25]

Tim thanks for trying to keeping something alive. I’ll answer your questions when I get a chance.

 

[Philip]

Lots of us are probably willing to speak for days about the questions that you posted.

I am thinking you also have questions and ideas about a new and improved business model. I think Alta's mistake was that they were overly optimistic by targeting the mainstream MX and Off-Road market this early. They wide market adoption hasn't happened as fast as they had thought. The low-end market is already over-crowded with KTM and various electric mini-bikes and bicycles. The market that is still open is the high-end market. You could start like Tesla with Model S and roadster, and then move to Model 3 for the masses. Alta started with Model 3, which was a gamble. It could have paid off big, but it didn't. The life of the company was cut short.

You either need investors willing to sink in a lot of their personal wealth into a long-term project.

Or you need a self-sustaining business model, with sales paying for future development and improvements.

 

[Bionicman]

I would suggest starting with a demographic approach to any budding manufacturers. We have a couple E bikes geared for newer riders. Then a gap in offerings for budding teen age riders within the E bike offerings. Now with Alta gone an adult size offering with performance in mind. I’m not expecting flying contraptions with lasers. Just comparable gas bike performance. Range & weight quick recharge ability would be my top aspects. Think features of an Alta/OSET MX10 combined for those family urban rides.
We can keep the sport alive by making it easily accessible because your not going to travel hours to a riding destination if you don’t have a drivers license...

 

[gewoontim]

Lots of us are probably willing to speak for days about the questions that you posted.

I am thinking you also have questions and ideas about a new and improved business model. I think Alta's mistake was that they were overly optimistic by targeting the mainstream MX and Off-Road market this early. They wide market adoption hasn't happened as fast as they had thought. The low-end market is already over-crowded with KTM and various electric mini-bikes and bicycles. The market that is still open is the high-end market. You could start like Tesla with Model S and roadster, and then move to Model 3 for the masses. Alta started with Model 3, which was a gamble. It could have paid off big, but it didn't. The life of the company was cut short.

You either need investors willing to sink in a lot of their personal wealth into a long-term project.

Or you need a self-sustaining business model, with sales paying for future development and improvements.

That's a really good point you're making, and part of my research is indeed about the business strategy. I was seeing the same analogy. Alta developed their product for many years until it was perfect. Tesla took the minimum viable product route (see article, which is really interesting), and apparently that worked for them. So partnering with a low-volume high-end manufacturer is something we're considering as well.

 

[wwmotors]

Questions

1. Why did you choose this electric dirtbike over an internal combustion bike?
2. What do you like about the Alta?
3. What do you dislike about the Alta?
4. What problems did you run into at the track?
5. What additional features would you like?
   1. Some examples: more statistics, datalogging, launch control, easy to use settings, traction control, LHRB/rear pedal. What else?
6. What would make you upgrade from your Alta?

Answers
1. Besause I have my own track, licensed for bikes with NO noise only. And I had a E-MX Rentalpark for 7 years before with Quantyas. So I´m "elctrically infected" already
2. The Alta is the first bike with a MX suspension equal to the combustion bikes manufacturers and same performance!
3. Rear Foot Brake! Changed it to handbrake already
4. On fast and deep tracks and warm days here in Germany, the battery gets warm (not hot) and then it takes very long to recharge, even with the powercharger, because electronic is limiting charging speed!
5. Ability to change maps! Especially regensetting!
6. Nothing in the moment!

 

[privateer703]

1. I chose the Alta for trail riding over ICE due to performance and control. However it should be noted that I only chose the Alta to replace an ice trail bike. I still have ICE bikes because the Alta can't do what every bike does.
2. see above.
3. Range
4. don't track race.
5. Ability to modify maps. Ability to change regen settings.
6. I wouldn't upgrade from the Alta, but I would buy a bigger battery if it was available.

 

[Redwolf]

1. I chose the Alta for trail riding over ICE due to performance and control. However it should be noted that I only chose the Alta to replace an ice trail bike. I still have ICE bikes because the Alta can't do what every bike does.
2. see above.
3. Range
4. don't track race.
5. Ability to modify maps. Ability to change regen settings.
6. I wouldn't upgrade from the Alta, but I would buy a bigger battery if it was available.

This almost perfectly says what I was going to post, saves me some typing.

 

[Alisescu]

It will be awesome to have reverse, otherwise it's perfect..i am sure the future wil bring lighter and more powerful batteries,

 

[Matt]

I have not owned mine long enough to answer most questions but I do have a couple of thoughts. I know a lot of people who were interested in owning an Alta. It often turned into debate on what was preventing them from buying one. For reference, many of these riders were weekend warriors or general riders who road a fair amount. The demographics on income were widespread from highschool riders to 200k+ a year income riders. Most originally thought it was not worth the cost, following the price drop those who would buy new bikes thought that it still wasn't quite worth the cost but were right on the line of being worth it. If the range was slightly more these rides would have likely jumped on one. The core group of riders that I spoke with generally buy used bikes. In the united states, in general, the used bike market has been increasing with a reduction in new bike sales. Many of the people I ride with who buy used bikes were entertaining the idea of buying an Alta still because of the benefits to electric. What they couldn't get past was the range and cost for this range. I personally thought the range was sufficient enough to be worth the investment but didn't have the money to buy a new one.

I think the largest challenge you will have is creating an assembly line/ production process that will reduce the cost to a mass market consumer level. I agree with what other people have said about targeting a larger market outside of MX as this is a smaller market to begin with.

 

[TriumphTwins]

Datalogging with the ability to create custom maps and regen curves would be a huge plus for me. Bluetooth integration for smart phone tuning would be nice but i'm totally ok with hooking it up to a laptop and doing it 'the old fashion way'. I would love to see a reverse somehow implemented too. I like the foot brake and would not want to do away with it but also having the LHRB would be very advantageous for woods riding. For the most part I'm pretty happy with my ALTA and for my needs the range is acceptable so any increase there is a plus. There is always going to be small things here and there that could be done better but for the most part the ALTA a a pretty good platform to start with. I sold my '17 KTM 450 SXF to buy an ALTA and so far I do NOT regret that decision other than for the fact that they closed!!

 

[revoltlution]

1. Why did you choose this electric dirtbike over an internal combustion bike?
   1. low noise, no gas, low maintenance, low engine temp while riding in dry areas, and I want to support this new industry
2. What do you like about the Alta?
   1. wow, so much... see 1.1,, absolute control/torque on trail, I've installed LHRB!, no rotating mass = good turning, it's a real dirtbike compared to competitors (i.e. ZeroFX)
3. What do you dislike about the Alta?
   1. range, closed firmware, lack of factory support
4. What problems did you run into at the track?
   1. suspension needs tuning and weight is felt on landings, otherwise it is awesome!
5. What additional features would you like?
   1. Some examples: open firmware (so many features)
      1. reverse
      2. hill hold
      3. map tuning
         1. available from phone or bike computer
         2. regen
         3. map selection... for trail riding, I would make my map buttons cycle between 1 and 3 only... don't need to scoll through a bunch of maps
      4. onboard gps with security to send sms
      5. wifi updates/datalogging to mobile
6. What would make you upgrade from your Alta?
   1. lack of support

 

[Rix]

Hi all Alta owners,

First, let me introduce myself. My name is Tim Veldhuis, and I’m a student of the University of Twente in the Netherlands. Being addicted to motorcycles my whole life, in the beginning of 2017 I took the initiative with a friend to start a new electric racing team: Electric Superbike Twente. Our goal was to build a fully electric racing bike, like our competitors Nova Electric Racing from Delft and the University of Nottingham. We spend a whole year fulltime on this with a team of 15 students and created the Liion-GP. The journey was amazing, electric motorcycles open up a whole new world for engineers. We won the MotoE competition, even though there were not so much competitors. For more information, see our website: European Champions in Electric Racing.

View attachment 2468


I would really appreciate your input and hope to make a contribution to the electric off-road market in the future. Because the future is going to be electrifying!

1. Why did you choose this electric dirtbike over an internal combustion bike?

A: Initially it didn't consider the Alta due to the price, but when it dropped over $3k, I bit the bullet and got one.

1. What do you like about the Alta?

A: Smoother power, and much quieter. I learned from riding high powered electric bikes on single track trails that I would love the Alta even without test riding before buying.

1. What do you dislike about the Alta?

A: Potential range. If my Alta had an 8kwh battery, it would satisfy 100% of my off-road riding needs. 50-55 mile trail riding range in Map 1 or 2 would be absolutely perfect.

1. What problems did you run into at the track?

A: Haven't rode MX since the 80s, I am unable to have input on this question.

1. What additional features would you like?

A: I think the machine is perfect. Others have mentioned the ability to modify the map control, regen control, support for replacement parts, reverse and stuff like that. These features would definitely be nice options, but are not deal breakers by any means for me.

1. What would make you upgrade from your Alta?

A: A better Alta or off road E motorcycle in general.

 

[Sumik]

It probably doesn't have sense to repeat all what has been said before. I love my Alta and ride races with it even if my lap times are about 1.5 s slower than with my KTM 350 F just because of the fun riding it. I agree with the majority of the topics. I just would like to add some ideas to the points 3. and 4.
What problems did you run into at the track?
1. Power limitation - usually for the last 2 laps of the race (15 minutes of riding in map 4) - probably due to the battery getting too hot. It's frustrating.
2. The suspension absolutely not set for MX riding. I have an early Redshift MX 2017, so may be this problem has been fixed later.
3. No possibility to replace the battery after a race (training) to continue a followed race (training) immediately. This is very limiting. In 2017 I took part in a training camp in Temecula and had to rent one additional bike (a combustion KTM one).. The Querlenker's solution is much much better in this aspect. They charge the batteries separately and I saw how they changed both batteries in less than a minute.
4. Power/weight ratio (speaking about 2017 MX). The power is absolutely comparable with the 250 Fs but the bike has 15 kg more.
Tim, if you would like my complete answers to your questionnaire, just send me a message in inbox.

 

[Motophyllic]

I’d love the Alta to mimic what Tesla has done with their battery charging: ability to select how much the battery charges.
Reverse would be outstanding.
Solid state battery with more range and less weight.
Open source software.
USB charger
Trials type chain tensioner to limit slack.

 

[Fod]

1. Why did you choose this electric dirtbike over an internal combustion bike?
   Easy to ride and low maintenence
2. What do you like about the Alta?
   See Above
3. What do you dislike about the Alta?
   Slow recharge, Low foot peg mounts, and soft susupension
4. What problems did you run into at the track?
   Long recharge times and some extreme bottoming
5. What additional features would you like?
   Im content at the moment
6. What would make you upgrade from your Alta?
   Quicker Recharge time

 

[Alta_mxr]

1. I have both wanted to try a capable all electrric bike.
2. Cross between a 4t and 2t, low maintenance, and quiet
3. Range, and plastic setup on the rear subframe. Needs to be totally redone.
4. Don’t ride track all offroad
5. More range, but no extra weight.
6. More range and less weight.

 

[FUEL]

Not to take away from your focus on the MX market but I see great opportunity in the onroad market.

You may also want to look into competing with onroad electrics. I bought the 2018 SM after I heard of Alta closing, and paid the dealer full price. Why?! Because it’s an engineering masterpiece and I now get to commute to and from work everyday with a smile on my face, in half the time.

I’m in crowded Los Angeles and it is lonely out here with onroad electrics, closest competition is Zero Motorcycles, but they don’t have a badass supermoto. Be the Tesla of onroad electrics.

People need to realize the value in paying a $3,000 premium. Tesla initially projected their model 3 to be priced at $35,000. It’s more like $44,000 and people are buying them.

This being said, range is the obvious limiting factor for reaching a larger customer base.

I wish you all the best in this endeavor and look forward to supporting your efforts.

 

[Bionicman]

Not to take away from your focus on the MX market but I see great opportunity in the onroad market.

You may also want to look into competing with onroad electrics. I bought the 2018 SM after I heard of Alta closing, and paid the dealer full price. Why?! Because it’s an engineering masterpiece and I now get to commute to and from work everyday with a smile on my face, in half the time.

I’m in crowded Los Angeles and it is lonely out here with onroad electrics, closest competition is Zero Motorcycles, but they don’t have a badass supermoto. Be the Tesla of onroad electrics.

People need to realize the value in paying a $3,000 premium. Tesla initially projected their model 3 to be priced at $35,000. It’s more like $44,000 and people are buying them.

This being said, range is the obvious limiting factor for reaching a larger customer base.

I wish you all the best in this endeavor and look forward to supporting your efforts.

I personally growing tired of the 80% public using range as their reasoning behind not going electric. In reality Dick&Jane go to work & the grocery store in their 15mpg dinasour burning mud truck! Not cross country road trips to Mardi Gras & the Grand Canyon....