crf450r 40kw with watercooled battery pack

[riverin]

Hi, wanted to show the bike I am currently working on.
The goal is to be competitiv against 450cc bike in motocross racing.
I basicly built a complete brand new bike from part on ebay and marketplace. Everything is brand new.
2018 crf250r frame
2021 crf450r swingarm
alta mxr forks and shock
yamaha wheels etc

For the electrical parts.
The motor is the QS motor 180
Controller is 3shuls cl700. This is a vesc based controller. water cooled.
The beattery will be 5.6kwh at 96v. The battery will be water cooled with immersion cooling( meaning the battery are in the coolant.
I designed a chaincase for the gear reduction of the motor.( similar to what is used on snowmobile)
I made a custum subframe that is wider than the original so that I can fit the controller in there.
Since I am using a vesc controller I will have a vesc based bms and display so everything will talk together using canbus.

 

[Philip]

I see a nice place for a couple of cold beers where the gas tank was.

 

[Philip]

Impressive machining and fabrication. I like it!

The suspension choice is strange though. Front AER48 air fork but the rear shock is from an MX/EX. People usually try to get rid of the WP suspension components, but you bought them.

 

[Number Six]

Scoop tire & a bucketful of metal shavings - awesome !

 

[Redwolf]

Nice clean looking build, can't wait to hear how it performs.

 

[#76]

Very impressed!, some great time taken with machining work and patience too. Awesome.

As @Philip said tho, suspension.

What's your expectations for range/charging times?.

 

[riverin]

For the suspension I initially bought the fork for my ktm and I liked them. I kept them when I sold the bike. Since the fork was wp I wanted the rear to be also. As a rider I am picky with my forks. The rear shock I almost never turn a clicker. And the aer48 is the best air fork out there.

 

[Warren]

Impressive machining and fabrication. I like it!

The suspension choice is strange though. Front AER48 air fork but the rear shock is from an MX/EX. People usually try to get rid of the WP suspension components, but you bought them.

Probably because of there light weight

 

[VINSANITY]

Very clean professional build.

I find it puzzling that you are able to do this work in your garage but somehow Honda cannot. Bizarre, I think the OEM are just sand bagging to milk their current product lines as much as possible. I think they will get Tesla’d and soon be screwed if they don’t start trying. Actually forget them we should support Stark, Sur Ron and Admit Jet and boycott their crappy 20th century junk. RIP Honda motorcles.

 

[Glenl]

Nice build, good choice of components, i would also go for the cl700 when my votol breaks down.. Gl with the build. Going for molicel?

 

[riverin]

Nice build, good choice of components, i would also go for the cl700 when my votol breaks down.. Gl with the build. Going for molicel?

26s 14p molicel p42a pack.
I designed all my bussbar and got them made from a manufacturer found on alibaba.

 

[Mark911]

I have experience with DI coolant fluids (Dialectric) with fully emersed packs and you'll need to design the cell layout with that in mind. You need to use greater than normal cell spacing to get enough flow to make any difference. This will make the pack larger than most you see where the cells are literally touching (a terrible practice to begin with). In addition, you'll need to make sure to expose the maximum cell surface area for same. Some means to compensate for fluid temperature increase as it flows through the cells might be in order depending on the total flow distance and delta T. Keep this as short as possible. Finally, the couple of fluids I've dealt with were both very expensive ($100 a gallon). This means keeping track of every oz you can during pack/bike maintenance. Some (like mine) need special expensive solvents to fully remove, making electrical and mechanical repairs difficult. The most troublesome characteristic of these fluids is the extreme level of capillary action and material compatibility. If there's even the slightest of porosity inside the pack, that fluid will find it and start to leak (and it's a pain to clean up as mentioned). It also dissolves or at least softens many kinds of rubber and sealants. In addition to the obvious, this can cause issues with some passive and active electronics if you intend to pack any internally. Short term I had no issues with flooding an Alta pack. It weighed a ton more due to the total case volume (another point to keep in mind), but I didn't experience any cell of electronic failures. I gave up on the concept become it was a pain to keep sealed and it didn't do much cooling. What cooling it did do produced large differences in cell temps top to bottom, side to side. Longterm, the modules I had used in that experiment all ultimately died while sitting on the shelf. Definitely do your homework or (as I found out) the benefits won't outweigh the problems.

 

[riverin]

I have experience with DI coolant fluids (Dialectric) with fully emersed packs and you'll need to design the cell layout with that in mind. You need to use greater than normal cell spacing to get enough flow to make any difference. This will make the pack larger than most you see where the cells are literally touching (a terrible practice to begin with). In addition, you'll need to make sure to expose the maximum cell surface area for same. Some means to compensate for fluid temperature increase as it flows through the cells might be in order depending on the total flow distance and delta T. Keep this as short as possible. Finally, the couple of fluids I've dealt with were both very expensive ($100 a gallon). This means keeping track of every oz you can during pack/bike maintenance. Some (like mine) need special expensive solvents to fully remove, making electrical and mechanical repairs difficult. The most troublesome characteristic of these fluids is the extreme level of capillary action and material compatibility. If there's even the slightest of porosity inside the pack, that fluid will find it and start to leak (and it's a pain to clean up as mentioned). It also dissolves or at least softens many kinds of rubber and sealants. In addition to the obvious, this can cause issues with some passive and active electronics if you intend to pack any internally. Short term I had no issues with flooding an Alta pack. It weighed a ton more due to the total case volume (another point to keep in mind), but I didn't experience any cell of electronic failures. I gave up on the concept become it was a pain to keep sealed and it didn't do much cooling. What cooling it did do produced large differences in cell temps top to bottom, side to side. Longterm, the modules I had used in that experiment all ultimately died while sitting on the shelf. Definitely do your homework or (as I found out) the benefits won't outweigh the problems.

Well thanks for all this information! It is the first time I see someone with real life experience with immersion cooling.
That kind of make me think I do not want to use this then. But then I still need to design a new type of active cooling for my pack.

 

[Dain_SSE]

All that fancy aluminum machining and fab work and you use a roller chain/tensioner for a primary reduction? A custom cog tooth belt or silent style chain is what should be there. At very least use a double strand #35 in an oil bath...

 

[Dain_SSE]

I have experience with DI coolant fluids (Dialectric) with fully emersed packs and you'll need to design the cell layout with that in mind. You need to use greater than normal cell spacing to get enough flow to make any difference. This will make the pack larger than most you see where the cells are literally touching (a terrible practice to begin with). In addition, you'll need to make sure to expose the maximum cell surface area for same. Some means to compensate for fluid temperature increase as it flows through the cells might be in order depending on the total flow distance and delta T. Keep this as short as possible. Finally, the couple of fluids I've dealt with were both very expensive ($100 a gallon). This means keeping track of every oz you can during pack/bike maintenance. Some (like mine) need special expensive solvents to fully remove, making electrical and mechanical repairs difficult. The most troublesome characteristic of these fluids is the extreme level of capillary action and material compatibility. If there's even the slightest of porosity inside the pack, that fluid will find it and start to leak (and it's a pain to clean up as mentioned). It also dissolves or at least softens many kinds of rubber and sealants. In addition to the obvious, this can cause issues with some passive and active electronics if you intend to pack any internally. Short term I had no issues with flooding an Alta pack. It weighed a ton more due to the total case volume (another point to keep in mind), but I didn't experience any cell of electronic failures. I gave up on the concept become it was a pain to keep sealed and it didn't do much cooling. What cooling it did do produced large differences in cell temps top to bottom, side to side. Longterm, the modules I had used in that experiment all ultimately died while sitting on the shelf. Definitely do your homework or (as I found out) the benefits won't outweigh the problems.

2mm cell spacing is about the minimum to keep reasonable pressure drop across an immersion cooled pack, the cells will also age differently if this isn't carefully designed due to constant delta T between cells. You also need to consider stagnation of the fluid around certain cells, which is moatly impossible unless you are doing CFD. That all being said I'd recommend if anyone is liquid cooling cells just use a plate cooler across the ends.

 

[riverin]

All that fancy aluminum machining and fab work and you use a roller chain/tensioner for a primary reduction? A custom cog tooth belt or silent style chain is what should be there. At very least use a double strand #35 in an oil bath...

This was the easiest and cheapest way to make the reduction. Also this way I can easily change the gearing ratio. Snowmobile all use this type of tensioner with absolutely no problems. Also this will be in an oil bath

 

[Dain_SSE]

Snowmobiles use a silent style chain drive that is smooth on the outside so it isn't bumping across the tensioner. When you have a billet machined motor mount/drive housing, cheap and easy isn't a good argument for your drive Its a great looking build, I'll be interested to see it finished!

 

[riverin]

Snowmobiles use a silent style chain drive that is smooth on the outside so it isn't bumping across the tensioner. When you have a billet machined motor mount/drive housing, cheap and easy isn't a good argument for your drive Its a great looking build, I'll be interested to see it finished

I can always change to a silent chain when I’m satisfied with the gearing and the bike performanc.

 

[riverin]

I have experience with DI coolant fluids (Dialectric) with fully emersed packs and you'll need to design the cell layout with that in mind. You need to use greater than normal cell spacing to get enough flow to make any difference. This will make the pack larger than most you see where the cells are literally touching (a terrible practice to begin with). In addition, you'll need to make sure to expose the maximum cell surface area for same. Some means to compensate for fluid temperature increase as it flows through the cells might be in order depending on the total flow distance and delta T. Keep this as short as possible. Finally, the couple of fluids I've dealt with were both very expensive ($100 a gallon). This means keeping track of every oz you can during pack/bike maintenance. Some (like mine) need special expensive solvents to fully remove, making electrical and mechanical repairs difficult. The most troublesome characteristic of these fluids is the extreme level of capillary action and material compatibility. If there's even the slightest of porosity inside the pack, that fluid will find it and start to leak (and it's a pain to clean up as mentioned). It also dissolves or at least softens many kinds of rubber and sealants. In addition to the obvious, this can cause issues with some passive and active electronics if you intend to pack any internally. Short term I had no issues with flooding an Alta pack. It weighed a ton more due to the total case volume (another point to keep in mind), but I didn't experience any cell of electronic failures. I gave up on the concept become it was a pain to keep sealed and it didn't do much cooling. What cooling it did do produced large differences in cell temps top to bottom, side to side. Longterm, the modules I had used in that experiment all ultimately died while sitting on the shelf. Definitely do your homework or (as I found out) the benefits won't outweigh the problems.

Hey mark may I ask you what type of thermal interface you used to connect the cells to the cold plate? Or at least what the original alta pack used?

 

[ProperHooligan]

26s 14p molicel p42a pack.
I designed all my bussbar and got them made from a manufacturer found on alibaba.
View attachment 9695View attachment 9696View attachment 9697

Wow, would you be willing to share the vendor and rough cost? These look quality!