General Do you miss using a clutch?

[rk42]

This question goes out to the moto guys. I currently own a CRF 450 and am pretty light on the clutch, nevertheless, in some situations revving up the bike to get that extra umph comes in pretty handy, for example in deep sand or big jumps out of a corner. I don't think its possible to replicate this effect by adding an "electronic" clutch since theres nothing heavy, like a crank, spinning up and having both brakes on the handlebars is something im super excited about.

So, do you miss that? Is it really not necessary because of 100% torque from 0? Or did you adapt your techniqe to cope with that drawback?

 

[Redwolf]

Nope, don't miss it a bit. I have managed to adapt my technique to compensate for the difference. Although I'm not a racer, or even all that fast, I find the Alta far more pleasant to ride in the woods and single track than any of my ICE bikes.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

I don't do 'moto' but i would love to have a flywheel and clutch. The 100 percent torque at zero is theoretical at best, stuff would get torn apart if that scenario was permitted. Also consider a clutch and flywheel might actually provide 150 percent torque, comparatively.

No clutch isn't a deal breaker for most that try riding these things, though. Its a bonus feature 90 percent of the time and a LHRB is awesome, too.

 

[Philip]

I personally do not miss the clutch at all with my 50hp Alta MXR.

I don't think you'd need a clutch on a 60hp or 80hp dirt bike if you have all those horses available instantly at the twist of a wrist.

Most 450cc riders like to lug the motor, which generates less than 50hp if they are under 7,500 RPM. This is why even many pro riders are faster on an Alta than on their 450cc bikes.

Then, sometimes they need to clear a jump out of a tight turn. In a tight turn they putt-putt the engine and produce maybe only 30hp or less. They then rev up the engine to get back into the powerband and feed the clutch. Unless they are James Stewart or Eli Tomac, they probably still use less than 60 hp. They'd have to rev the engine to the redline and fully release the clutch in a split second to produce a horsepower spike that is greater than 60hp. They might do that to clear some monster quad, and they'd better time it just perfectly, or they are screwed.

In the sand revving up the engine and dumping the clutch would be pointless because it is impossible to generate more than 60ph for longer than a split of a second even with a heavy flywheel.

So, if you are light clutch user, you are probably just keeping the engine in the meat of its powerband (max 60hp). You would not need the clutch in the sand if you have those 60 horses available to you at all times.

It is theoretically possible to make an "electronic flywheel and clutch" to duplicate the performance of a mechanical system. With higher horsepower numbers and the absence of gearboxes the performance advantages of such systems would go unnoticed by most riders. But there could be a few who would learn to time the extra oomph just perfectly to gain an advantage over others... sometimes... They'd better have an amazing traction control not to spin up the rear tire on the face of that quad!

 

[Matt]

This question goes out to the moto guys. I currently own a CRF 450 and am pretty light on the clutch, nevertheless, in some situations revving up the bike to get that extra umph comes in pretty handy, for example in deep sand or big jumps out of a corner. I don't think its possible to replicate this effect by adding an "electronic" clutch since theres nothing heavy, like a crank, spinning up and having both brakes on the handlebars is something im super excited about.

So, do you miss that? Is it really not necessary because of 100% torque from 0? Or did you adapt your techniqe to cope with that drawback?

I do a fair bit of moto and like that my Alta doesn't have a clutch. I have a jump on my track that is directly out of a tight turn and there is a muddy/slick section at the end of the turn too so it's pretty tricky. It essentially gives you like 5 feet of run in to actually get drive for the jump . It's by far the easiest to clear on my Alta vs my gas bike or any other gas bike I have ridden that jump on. The gas bikes require that clutch feather/pop. The Alta is just a quick throttle modulation. Even for logs and other objects during Enduro riding once you get the throttle characteristics down it's not that hard to pop up over things. I do think the ability to adjust maps to allow for a little more instantaneous pop would help with objects in Enduro but as is it isn't that bad at least not from my experience.

 

[bluefxstc]

Don't miss a clutch at all, but then I am pretty lazy so one less thing to do is good.

 

[snydes]

Don’t miss it on moto. I do occasionally find myself wanting one in technical off-road.

 

[Philip]

Almost forgot! Having no clutch in the mud is an absolute godsend! Last time I had to ride my Alta on a muddy track I enjoyed it like a kid, hahaha!

The Alta's maps are not good for the loose and fluffy sand. Too much wheelspin. A heavy sand is fine. But with more traction control options, playing in any sand with the Stark Varg should be just as enjoyable as playing in the mud! I really look forward to it.

The closest to me practice track is all loose sand. I have been avoiding it with my Alta bikes. But with the Stark Varg and its adjustable traction control, It could actually become my favorite. More fun than a 450 with a paddle tire!

 

[rk42]

Thanks for the insights, great to hear that from people with experience on electric bikes.

I agree that 60hp rarely end up on the rear wheel. But i heard that tesla and other EVs delete the first 〜10km/h to get this crazy 0-100 numbers and was wondering if thats something characteristic to e-motors, like a split second lag befor it goes rocketship. Dumping the clutch (a fresh one) is as instant as it gets, even if its just 30hp.

 

[Philip]

But i heard that tesla and other EVs delete the first 〜10km/h to get this crazy 0-100 numbers

I am not sure what you mean here.

Tesla and other EVs (the Alta Redshift) can theoretically give you the full horsepower at zero speed. But that would be an infinite torque at zero speed. The bike will be rideable. You will either spin up the tire or instantly loop out. EV DIYourselfers know this very well.

Take a look at these power and torque charts. Perhaps the flattened torque below ~25mph is what you are talking about???

There are also traction control settings, like limiting the motor acceleration from zero to 10,000 rpm to be no quicker than a certain number of seconds... Such things should be user-tunable.

 

[Matt]

I am not sure what you mean here.

Tesla and other EVs (the Alta Redshift) can theoretically give you the full horsepower at zero speed. But that would be an infinite torque at zero speed. The bike will be rideable. You will either spin up the tire or instantly loop out. EV DIYourselfers know this very well.

Take a look at these power and torque charts. Perhaps the flattened torque below ~25mph is what you are talking about???

He is referring to the 0-60 time that is from a dead stop vs the first half a wheel spin 0-60 time. Most car companies post 0-60 times that doesn't include the first part of the wheel spin. I think this is because of the lazer start thing on drag strips.

 

[TCMB371]

People ask me this question a lot. There's such a common misconception that electric bikes are way too torquey right off idle and that it makes the bike a handful to ride. Sure, if you go from 0-100% throttle from a stop, you're going to have trouble keeping that front end down. There is a lot of power available on your right wrist. However, one of the biggest advantages we have on the Alta is how incredibly manageable the power is. The power is delivered in a very smooth fashion, and its super easy to modulate with the throttle. There's no lurching or teeter-tottering like a gas bike under partial throttle. Its so manageable that you can literally turn the bike on and, even in the max power setting, low throttle crawl it up a ramp onto the back of a pickup with 1 hand, without having to push the bike. Try doing that on a gas bike.

Then there are people that use a clutch to get them out of a wheelie or whiskey throttle situation. I guess owning the Alta has taught me great throttle control, because I only really had a whiskey throttle situation once where i massive overjumped a table top to flat, the forks pogo'd, and i was hanging off the back of the bike. I don't even think having a clutch in that situation would have benefitted me at all because things happened so quickly.

Having to use the clutch (and shifting) on my KX450 feels like an extra chore required to spin laps. Its an absolute luxury not having to worry about using the clutch and shifting on a motocross track.

 

[rk42]

He is referring to the 0-60 time that is from a dead stop vs the first half a wheel spin 0-60 time. Most car companies post 0-60 times that doesn't include the first part of the wheel spin. I think this is because of the lazer start thing on drag strips.

Exactly!

I am not sure what you mean here.

Tesla and other EVs (the Alta Redshift) can theoretically give you the full horsepower at zero speed. But that would be an infinite torque at zero speed. The bike will be rideable. You will either spin up the tire or instantly loop out. EV DIYourselfers know this very well.

Take a look at these power and torque charts. Perhaps the flattened torque below ~25mph is what you are talking about???

There are also traction control settings, like limiting the motor acceleration from zero to 10,000 rpm to be no quicker than a certain number of seconds... Such things should be user-tunable.

I know it's theoretically possible to go from 0 speed to full power, but does that really happen in the real world? Or is it more like full power from quarter or half turn? Not that it would be a deal breaker for me, just curious, I ordered my vard the second the website allowed me to.

I really don't have much experience with electric bikes. I only rode an Alta once, for a small demo in Milestone in a low mode, and the Pohlbock prototype but that's more like 125 power.

 

[rk42]

People ask me this question a lot. There's such a common misconception that electric bikes are way too torquey right off idle and that it makes the bike a handful to ride. Sure, if you go from 0-100% throttle from a stop, you're going to have trouble keeping that front end down. There is a lot of power available on your right wrist. However, one of the biggest advantages we have on the Alta is how incredibly manageable the power is. The power is delivered in a very smooth fashion, and its super easy to modulate with the throttle. There's no lurching or teeter-tottering like a gas bike under partial throttle. Its so manageable that you can literally turn the bike on and, even in the max power setting, low throttle crawl it up a ramp onto the back of a pickup with 1 hand, without having to push the bike. Try doing that on a gas bike.

Then there are people that use a clutch to get them out of a wheelie or whiskey throttle situation. I guess owning the Alta has taught me great throttle control, because I only really had a whiskey throttle situation once where i massive overjumped a table top to flat, the forks pogo'd, and i was hanging off the back of the bike. I don't even think having a clutch in that situation would have benefitted me at all because things happened so quickly.

Having to use the clutch (and shifting) on my KX450 feels like an extra chore required to spin laps. Its an absolute luxury not having to worry about using the clutch and shifting on a motocross track.

Totally agree when it comes to whiskey throttle! The only thing that possibly prevents you from that is great body position. The idea to pull the clutch in a split second while holding on for dear life is a bit too optimistic imo.

 

[Philip]

He is referring to the 0-60 time that is from a dead stop vs the first half a wheel spin 0-60 time. Most car companies post 0-60 times that doesn't include the first part of the wheel spin. I think this is because of the lazer start thing on drag strips.

Ah, okay. I remember reading about the 1-foot "rollout” in Road & Track. This applies to both gas and electric vehicles. Just a silly drag racing math. The EVs do not have any inherent advantages or disadvantages here.

 

[Philip]

I know it's theoretically possible to go from 0 speed to full power, but does that really happen in the real world? Or is it more like full power from quarter or half turn?

Full power -- no, and you do not want it! Full torque -- yes, you can get it. But that torque is limited by the (adjustable) traction control, which is what you also want to have on an electric bike. Else it will be just a drift/loop-out monster.

 

[Matt]

Ah, okay. I remember reading about the 1-foot "rollout” in Road & Track. This applies to both gas and electric vehicles. Just a silly drag racing math. The EVs do not have any inherent advantages or disadvantages here.

The only advantage they have is that they are so heavy with so much torque they launch harder over that one foot and their exit speed is faster after that one foot. So their 0-60 time might be like a 10-60 time where as other cars may be a 5-60 time. Either way the EV is faster lol

 

[Philip]

The only advantage they have is that they are so heavy with so much torque they launch harder over that one foot and their exit speed is faster after that one foot. So their 0-60 time might be like a 10-60 time where as other cars may be a 5-60 time. Either way the EV is faster lol

So it's the gas cars that are actually slower and they also try to cheat.

 

[VINSANITY]

I realize that I sort of use the LHRB like a clutch. When pulling wheelies for instance I get on the rear brake to drop the front end and then hammer the throttle and release the brake and to me the sequence is similar to using the clutch to do the same thing which is get a burst of power.

I also realize when going through whoops I do the same thing.

 

[Trialsman]

As much as I like the Alta and as smooth as it is, I would still like a clutch. My reasons stem from the technical type of single track that I ride. Smooth has always been the best way to get through some of the muddy, rooted, off camber, just plain nasty terrain. Using your wrist is a gross motor skill while a finger is a fine motor skill. The throttle hand will take you most of the way, but if we had a way to "feather" or "pop" the "clutch" it would be absolutely perfect. I have always wanted to interrupt the signal from the throttle back to the ECU with another Hall effect device, but with a linear actuator as in a lever. In theory the ECU should not be able to tell the difference in the signal - just that it has been reduced, either by the wrist or the "clutch" finger. I have heard a rumor that the grey wire will be the one to test first. I now have a spare Alta throttle so I can start some experiments. Has anyone tried a similar thing? Any insight would be appreciated by me and many others.