Dust Moto


F451

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Looks like its Ultra Bee sized, like a 7/8 size dirt bike.

Question is, does it have $3500 more performance, quality, and company longevity/viability then the Ultra Bee?
 

Chadx

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You can buy a Stark for the same price.

Right, but now we are in the realm of "get what works best for your use case" and not price. Battery may be down on size/range, but if suspension quality and power are on par and the battery range works for you, then many would choose a bike this size over a Varg. I love my Varg, but if these came out at the same time as the Varg and if they had the same battery size/range (a lot of ifs there), I would have been hard pressed on which one to choose. I like a fullsize bike for cockpit comfort, but for the really gnarly mountain single track, a Dust-sized bike would be an easier, funner ride if I'm honest with myself. But everywhere else, I like the room on the Varg. Ideally, I'd have both a Varg sized bike and and a Dust sized bike, but since the ability of the two overlap so much, probably doesn't make sense.
 

Chadx

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Looks like its Ultra Bee sized, like a 7/8 size dirt bike.

Question is, does it have $3500 more performance, quality, and company longevity/viability then the Ultra Bee?

$3,500 in parts; absolutely. Ultra wheels/tires will be over $1,000 and good aftermarket suspension is over $3,200 so there is $4,200 worth of value right there vs upgrading an Ultra.

Of course, if Surron decided to offer upgrade options right from the factory (21/18, good suspension, bigger battery) so we were not paying for mediocre and replacing with good components, they could easily offer wheel and suspension upgrades for $2,000 or less with their buying power. Throw in a big battery option for another $1,500 and now you have a $10,000 ultra, direct from Surron with 21/18 wheels/tires, great suspension and big battery compared to an Ultra being over $14,500 built out with those components using aftermarket.

I hate paying for, and shelving, components. I want to buy/pay for upgrades right from the manufacturer which is far more economical.
In my opinion, Dust is heading in the right direction in that regard (high quality components right from the factory).

Reliability of drivetrain and company longevity are unknowns, of course, and Surron has the longevity advantage over everybody including Stark.
Will be fun to watch this Dust thing unfold over the next couple years and see how Surron and others compete (hopefully by offering great components as an option right from the factory).
 

Upinsmoke57

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The Stark is an amazing machine, possibly the best bike I've ever owned (when it works). But after 16 hours and having no bike to ride or anyone to call up and get a simple answer from it is clear that unless Stark invests in local service centers they are not going to be able to handle the rising maintenance issues. I called my dealer and they said they are treated the same as a customer. They have no proprietary machines to diagnose the bike or any special inside service manuals. The simple fact that Dust is made here in the USA is enough reason for me to invest. If it can do our slow enduro rides (2-3 hrs) on a single charge I'm all in! Does anyone by chance know the estimated cost of a second battery?
 

Theo

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$3,500 in parts; absolutely. Ultra wheels/tires will be over $1,000 and good aftermarket suspension is over $3,200 so there is $4,200 worth of value right there vs upgrading an Ultra. Of course, if Surron decided to offer upgrade options right from the factory (21/18, good suspension, bigger battery)
Well, the Varg has KYB suspensions well known for their performance; from what I can see in the specifications and pictures, the Hightail has:
• Non split triple clamps vs split in the Varg.
• ø43 mm fork vs 48: it means that probably the fork will flex more, binding the bushings more and therefore increasing friction. A 125 MX bike will have the ø48, typically, despite being lighter.
• 260 mm of travel vs 310 in the fork; I guess that the previous point and a 21" in a smaller bike prevents to have more travel.
• 285 mm of travel in the rear vs 310: similar considerations may apply.
Besides, the weight is stated to be lower than 100 kg, which sounds like a provisional specification which may turn out to be more disappointing.
Another thing to consider is that, as far as I've understood, a lot of KTM parts fit the Varg; what fits this other bike is still unknown.
And of course we don't know about reliability, customer support, et cetera.

I actually like it; I just would be careful stating that it's so all right that its price is similar to the price of a Varg.
 

Chadx

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Well, the Varg has KYB suspensions well known for their performance; from what I can see in the specifications and pictures, the Hightail has:
• Non split triple clamps vs split in the Varg.
• ø43 mm fork vs 48: it means that probably the fork will flex more, binding the bushings more and therefore increasing friction. A 125 MX bike will have the ø48, typically, despite being lighter.
• 260 mm of travel vs 310 in the fork; I guess that the previous point and a 21" in a smaller bike prevents to have more travel.
• 285 mm of travel in the rear vs 310: similar considerations may apply.
Besides, the weight is stated to be lower than 100 kg, which sounds like a provisional specification which may turn out to be more disappointing.
Another thing to consider is that, as far as I've understood, a lot of KTM parts fit the Varg; what fits this other bike is still unknown.
And of course we don't know about reliability, customer support, et cetera.

I actually like it; I just would be careful stating that it's so all right that its price is similar to the price of a Varg.

You and I are thinking through these comparisons very similarly, but just come at if from different use cases. You more MX and me more trail.

In the particular post you quoted, I was comparing Surron Ultra and the Dust and the cost of upgrading Ultra parts to be on par with the Dust parts and if the Dust being $3,500 more than an Ultra was worth it based on the components of the two, which I opine it is. The stock Ultra components are lacking, but Dust is using much better quality parts. You are right to compare to Varg since all three of those land in about the same price point. No doubt the Varg had "fullsize everything", including fork diameter, travel, and weight, but for certain use cases or riders, those may not be beneficial or of value. Kind of like the 80hp Varg was of no value to me over a 60hp. I would never use it except for one or two "so that is what if feels like" rips. Ha. If the price difference between 60hp and 80hp was $100, I would have kept $100 in my pocket and still got 60hp. Where others might gladly pay more than the $1,000 going rate.

In my opinion, between the Varg and Dust, it really comes down to personal use case and rider preference. For example, if a person only does motocross, then I don't think Dust is the right bike unless you are small/light or just want to recreationally do it. I think the Dust is targeted at small/tight/gnarly single track recreational riding or hard enduro type riding where it's smaller size and weight have their advantages, though one can certainly use the Dust for anything "dirtbiky" including track riding. Some riders (size/weight/style) or terrain/uses cases just don't benefit from a bike the size of a Stark or with larger components.

It would kind of be like if a person was buying a new pickup, both the same price, but one the dealership had put expensive, high quality 6" suspension lift on it. Both had expensive aftermarket shock package. There may be some extra, costlier components on the lifted truck, but if I can't fit it in my garage or never drive trails/offroad and only drive asphalt or I only use the truck to tow heavy, those components are of no value to my use case. Then the next buyer might value them because where they drive, the extra height/width/clearance is an advantage. Similarly, larger or costlier components of a Varg over a Dust only have value for certain buyers use cases. (That was the best I could come up with. Ha.)

100% agree on Varg having the advantage of using parts that are interchangeable with existing manufacturers. That was such a smart move. So many KTM and Yamaha components (and aftermarket compatible components) out there available for use just baked into that choice. One-off stuff is more expensive to produce, harder to source and a bit risky if the company doesn't survive. No reason for suspension, wheels, brakes and similar components to be proprietary. Good on Stark for going that route.

Will add that the removable battery is nice, but not because I ride where I could do a battery swap. It nice from a winter storage and charging-outside-of-the-bike perspective. Those that ride in OHV area, tracks or lap races will surely like that feature compared to the Varg.
 

Chadx

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23 second Short (disappointingly, shot Portrait rather than Landscape, but can be forgiven since it's a Short intended for the "mobile phone, social media" viewer but then also loaded to YT).
 

HadesOmega

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Too expensive =/

That's why I went with a conversion. It is nice it has a swappable battery though. Would like to test ride it.
 

Number Six

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Looks like its Ultra Bee sized, like a 7/8 size dirt bike.

Question is, does it have $3500 more performance, quality, and company longevity/viability then the Ultra Bee?
I have a UB & have spent the $$ on what I believe to be essential upgrades to make the bike usable & safe for race pace single track riding here in the midwest.
It was & is a fairly long list ; wheels / ergonomics / gearing / suspension / a real skid plate / rotors that dont warp under heat .. & so on.

If the Dust needs mostly none of those add-ons it represents a very reasonable value when you consider that it will likely also have proper bearings supporting the suspension linkage, a swingarm pivot of a larger diameter than the toothpick sized one in the UB, & most importantly ; a 2 inch longer wheelbase.

Some have upwards of 12K & more ! in their UB's & yet they still have a bike with but a 53" wheelbase.
I've ridden both my UB & a well sorted KTM 250xcw on the same trails for over a year now, the short wheelbase of the UB, at least for me, holds it back to a significant degree in comparison to the longer & heavier KTM. Any advantage the UB has in nimbleness, it gives back in the form of overall stability & suspension compliance over rough terrain.

For less than race pace trail riding it's different equation, the UB is truly terrific for just casual riding around in the woods, so much fun not having any noise, the parking brake & reverse functions that I thought were just gimmicks have proven to useful to the point that I'd not want to be without them.
If the Dust bike can bring to the table all that the UB does but in a more robust, reliable, better suspended & more stable form they will have arrived at that sweet spot that has yet to be available in an off road e-moto machine.
 

AnthonyZ

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I have a UB & have spent the $$ on what I believe to be essential upgrades to make the bike usable & safe for race pace single track riding here in the midwest.
It was & is a fairly long list ; wheels / ergonomics / gearing / suspension / a real skid plate / rotors that dont warp under heat .. & so on.

If the Dust needs mostly none of those add-ons it represents a very reasonable value when you consider that it will likely also have proper bearings supporting the suspension linkage, a swingarm pivot of a larger diameter than the toothpick sized one in the UB, & most importantly ; a 2 inch longer wheelbase.

Some have upwards of 12K & more ! in their UB's & yet they still have a bike with but a 53" wheelbase.
I've ridden both my UB & a well sorted KTM 250xcw on the same trails for over a year now, the short wheelbase of the UB, at least for me, holds it back to a significant degree in comparison to the longer & heavier KTM. Any advantage the UB has in nimbleness, it gives back in the form of overall stability & suspension compliance over rough terrain.

For less than race pace trail riding it's different equation, the UB is truly terrific for just casual riding around in the woods, so much fun not having any noise, the parking brake & reverse functions that I thought were just gimmicks have proven to useful to the point that I'd not want to be without them.
If the Dust bike can bring to the table all that the UB does but in a more robust, reliable, better suspended & more stable form they will have arrived at that sweet spot that has yet to be available in an off road e-moto machine.
Have you had UB linkage bearings go bad?
 

Number Six

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Have you had UB linkage bearings go bad?
Have had the bushings that support the 'A' link arm go egg shaped.
Have bent the swingarm pivot bolt to the point where it was very difficult to get out.
Have broken the outer race in a swingarm bearing. ( how is that even possible ? )
Have warped the rear rotor beyond usability. Twice, till I figured out that lots of CR250 rotors will fit & are up to the task.

The UB is a good & really fun bike that is also surprisingly competent, but some of the engineering & materials choices made in the name of production costs & keeping weight low fail the bike to some degree when it's used in a similar manner as a garden variety gas enduro machine.
The UB was never really designed for that level of off road punishment, so by that measure it really does hold up remarkably well for the most part.

Given the Dust bike's price point & gross weight, it's likely that they (dust) didn't have to make the same compromises that Surron determined as necessary on the UB.
 

HadesOmega

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This is a Light Bee Warp9 V2 linkage, 12.9 grade bolt snapped in half too. This is what happens when you race a Light Bee on a fullsize motocross track. I've also bent rear axles, swingarm axles, grenaded jackshaft bearings, cracked swingarm support.
1025242309_HDR-XL.jpg
 

AnthonyZ

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Have had the bushings that support the 'A' link arm go egg shaped.
Have bent the swingarm pivot bolt to the point where it was very difficult to get out.
Have broken the outer race in a swingarm bearing. ( how is that even possible ? )
Have warped the rear rotor beyond usability. Twice, till I figured out that lots of CR250 rotors will fit & are up to the task.

The UB is a good & really fun bike that is also surprisingly competent, but some of the engineering & materials choices made in the name of production costs & keeping weight low fail the bike to some degree when it's used in a similar manner as a garden variety gas enduro machine.
The UB was never really designed for that level of off road punishment, so by that measure it really does hold up remarkably well for the most part.

Given the Dust bike's price point & gross weight, it's likely that they (dust) didn't have to make the same compromises that Surron determined as necessary on the UB.
That sounds like a fair assessment, and that's helpful information.
Thank you.
 

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