Electric Cycle Rider Full Size E Dirtbike Shootout - Artic Leopard vs Stark vs Alta vs E&C

[HadesOmega]

 

[Dirt-E]

Nice comparison. I have to admit, I'm a bit disappointed the Alta was ranked the way it was, because it's extremely comparable to my new Stark. Maybe the Yamaha conversion is also just that good (but it looks like someone made it in their garage). I guess credit yamaha with a great frame and suspension, but I think the WP Xplore in my Alta has been my favorite of all time.

I will give the nod to the Stark on ergonomics. I'm incredibly happy with it so far and the rider position never feels wrong, no matter how far forward or back in the saddle I try. Especially the plastics. Sorry Alta, but those ribs are murder on my knee and I can definitely grip the Stark much better. I haven't had it long enough to really get used to it, but I've figured out the power delivery and front brake. Regen isn't as good on the Stark, but it's okayish.

Kind of a weird talking point is the tool kit between the two bikes. Man! I just can't get over how good the tools are in the Stark kit. Now I have enough tools to work on both bikes (Alta and Stark) as well as my KTM since they use mostly similar hardware, so I'm pretty stoked about it

 

[HadesOmega]

Wow nice tool kit. I have ridden both the Varg and a Redshift EX and like you mention they felt very similar. I don't have much seat time on either though and it's been ages since I have ridden a Redshift MX/EX. The Stark tool kit is much nicer =P

As far as I'm concerned the E&C YZ is invisible to me considering how E&C burned me on the EMXron controller.

Oh yeah I commented on their video that they should have included the Storm Bee and maybe the Zero FX (with chain conversion). I know the Storm Bee you can swap batteries that's a feature that I like.

 

[ReVolter]

I love the regenerative breaking on my Varg. I run about 80% and 52 HP, and hardly have to use the regular brakes on the MX track. I think the regen braking is smoother and doesn't create braking bumps but when it hits them it smoothly tracks them instead of skidding off the top of each one.

The Storm Bee and Zero FX bikes are not "full size" bikes and would not be little more than obstacles to the big boys.

 

[HadesOmega]

Have you seen a Storm Bee in person? It's huge, I can barely get on it. A Zero FX is just as big. I heard a Storm Bee finished a 24hour motocross race also can your Varg do that with it's non swappable battery?

KC PowerSports on Instagram: "We have teamed up @officialsurron to run the Storm Bee in the @glenhelenraceway 24 Hour Endurance Race. This will be the first ever electric bike to run a 24 endurance race. The race team includes members @brokenenduro

155 likes, 9 comments - kcpowersports on October 28, 2023: "We have teamed up @officialsurron to run the Storm Bee in the @glenhelenraceway 24 Hour Endurance Race. This will be the first ever electric bike to run a 24 endurance race. The race team includes members @brokenenduro and @tunedbyten...

www.instagram.com

KC Powerparts on Instagram: "@tunedbyten keeping the gas bikes at bay while putting in fast lap times. Headed towards the evening with over 120 miles traveled, temperatures are starting to cool. The battery and motor have been going strong. Time

130 likes, 6 comments - kcpowerparts on October 28, 2023: "@tunedbyten keeping the gas bikes at bay while putting in fast lap times. Headed towards the evening with over 120 miles traveled, temperatures are starting to cool. The battery and motor have been going strong. Time to get the...

www.instagram.com

KC PowerSports on Instagram: "Late night pit stop and battery swap. Ready for the next lap! @kcpowerparts @kcazpowersports @kzpowersports"

113 likes, 7 comments - kcpowersports on October 29, 2023: "Late night pit stop and battery swap. Ready for the next lap! @kcpowerparts @kcazpowersports @kzpowersports".

www.instagram.com

 

[Number Six]

Was considering getting the Varg given the latest pricing.
But .. that EMX Yamaha still has nearly 50HP, a Yamaha chassis & suspension , & the real difference ; it's over 20lbs lighter.
Carry 3 gallons of liquid around for a while to get a feel for just how 20lbs feels ...
[ sound of clicking keyboard .. searching for Yamaha roller ]

 

[Chadx]

Was considering getting the Varg given the latest pricing.
But .. that EMX Yamaha still has nearly 50HP, a Yamaha chassis & suspension , & the real difference ; it's over 20lbs lighter.
Carry 3 gallons of liquid around for a while to get a feel for just how 20lbs feels ...
[ sound of clicking keyboard .. searching for Yamaha roller ]

It sounds like that "20lbs lighter" come at the expense of range. Smaller batteries are lighter.
With my Varg, I'm wanting to go the opposite way because I trail ride; no MX. Current 6.5kWh and 260lb, I'd take another 20lb of battery to add even more range. I still think Varg should come up with two or three different batteries for the Varg Chassis. Current size, one smaller, and one larger. Let the buyer choose when ordering depending on their use case. Hoping they will at least do that with the enduro model they are working on. At least two choices: the current 6.5kWh and something maybe 20% larger like a 7.8kWh. That would give me about 8 or 10 extra miles on slower rides and 5 - 7 miles on faster ones. And I'm fine with the extra 20 pounds if it means not cutting the day shorter than I otherwise would. But for those that don't want the extra range, then other battery choices. They would just need to figure out battery mounts. The new bike could have different or wider ones and then an adapter to fit the current 6.5kWh or the new larger battery. The trick to different battery sizes is the different cell configurations and keeping the even cooling, etc.

 

[Dirt-E]

I can agree with a bigger battery. My Alta EXR was at 273lbs (I think?) in stock configuration. This included the lights, mirrors, kick stand, horn, and wiring harness. I take that thing just about everywhere and the weight doesn't bother me much.

If I had an Enduro model that either just had a headlight/tail light, or no lights and bigger battery. It could be an equivalent weight and still be well within the realm of possibility. Mmaybe even more?

I'm not sure how much more range you get for each 5-10lb increase in weight, but I can imagine there might be some diminishing returns. 250-270lbs and 75 miles of high speed range would be the tipping point for most people. We might be a few years away from that possibility. I'm guessing somewhere around 2035.

 

[Oded]

I would like to have the opposite - A lighter battery pack.
I finish my 2.5 hours hard enduro ride with about 50% capacity left on my Alta. These very technical slow rides, where the bike's weight is the main culprit.

Would love a lighter Varg on the expense of range.

Hard enduro is extremely suitable for electrics because the riding characteristics are very conservative on the electrics range.

 

[fsfs]

I would like to have the opposite - A lighter battery pack.
I finish my 2.5 hours hard enduro ride with about 50% capacity left on my Alta. These very technical slow rides, where the bike's weight is the main culprit.

Would love a lighter Varg on the expense of range.

Hard enduro is extremely suitable for electrics because the riding characteristics are very conservative on the electrics range.

Apparently one size does not fit all.

 

[Chadx]

I can agree with a bigger battery. My Alta EXR was at 273lbs (I think?) in stock configuration. This included the lights, mirrors, kick stand, horn, and wiring harness. I take that thing just about everywhere and the weight doesn't bother me much.

If I had an Enduro model that either just had a headlight/tail light, or no lights and bigger battery. It could be an equivalent weight and still be well within the realm of possibility. Mmaybe even more?

I'm not sure how much more range you get for each 5-10lb increase in weight, but I can imagine there might be some diminishing returns. 250-270lbs and 75 miles of high speed range would be the tipping point for most people. We might be a few years away from that possibility. I'm guessing somewhere around 2035.

I usually avoid yearningly bringing up "but wait until X future tech is here. That will change everything", but solid state batteries are coming along nicely and hitting the retail market. Have seen various small battery-powered items showing up on Amazon and other retail outlets, but now, some fishing boat batteries are already at trade shows and for sale. Pricey, but out there. Kind of like lithium batteries were when they first became available retail. They are about 1/2 the weight for the same watt hours, but 3x the price.

Example: 12v 90ah is $999 (where typical LiFePO4 12v 100ah is $180 - $300).
12V 90Ah Deep Cycle + Starting Battery
And they have 12v, 24v, 36v and 48v and go up to fairly large sizes (10.6kWh for $5,950).

It will be a while, but once solid state tech spins up and is proven and we start to see the price reduction from scaling, it will become a more attractive option, particularly for weight-conscious applications like dirtbikes, motorcycles, boat propulsion, eMTB, powered hydrofoils, ATVs, etc. It will be beneficial for autos as well, but not as critical as these other applications, but imagine a jump from 300 - 400 miles of range to 600 - 800 miles of range in a BEV of the same weight.

So the questions becomes, how much extra would you pay for 1/2 the weight but current energy storage? Or pay for current weight with twice the energy storage and range?

Current Varg replacement battery is $3,000 and replacement parts always cost more than what comes in the bike, so figure $2,000 of the current bike cost is battery cost. If solid state matures and price comes down to 2x the cost, that could mean $4,000 in battery cost. So, would you pay $2,000 more for a Varg that has the same battery storage/range but the battery is half the weight? Or, based on a battery with twice the capacity costing $8000 rather than $2,000, would you pay $6,000 more for a Varg that is the same 260lb as now, but has twice the battery storage and range (13kWh)?

Don't know that we will ever see prices for Varg like during this inventory sale, but I just paid a bit under $10,000 for my 60hp enduro with sidestand out the door. If solid state was proven/matured tech and I had the option between a 60hp Varg for $10,000 with current battery or the a Varg with solid state and twice the battery capacity for $16,000, I would have chosen the latter. 60 to 80 miles of range in current weight would have been impossible for me to resist. Ha. It would open up using my electric dirtbike for almost 100% of my rides including longer, higher speed rides (like long forest service roads) which is currently where I still need to use ICE. An extra $6,000 is expensive, but it could mean eliminating having an extra bike in the garage which could make up for it.

Since batteries eventually will need to be replaced, different battery sizes or tech may become available down the road. Provided the battery case mounting points remain the same and other dimensional constraints are worked around, in 5 or 8 years, if your Varg battery needs replacement, there may be alternative chemistry and energy capacity choices.

Oh, and solid state can charge at t3mps a far bit below freezing.

I guess file this under "someday". Ha.

 

[fsfs]

It sounds like that "20lbs lighter" come at the expense of range. Smaller batteries are lighter.
With my Varg, I'm wanting to go the opposite way because I trail ride; no MX. Current 6.5kWh and 260lb, I'd take another 20lb of battery to add even more range. I still think Varg should come up with two or three different batteries for the Varg Chassis. Current size, one smaller, and one larger. Let the buyer choose when ordering depending on their use case. Hoping they will at least do that with the enduro model they are working on. At least two choices: the current 6.5kWh and something maybe 20% larger like a 7.8kWh. That would give me about 8 or 10 extra miles on slower rides and 5 - 7 miles on faster ones. And I'm fine with the extra 20 pounds if it means not cutting the day shorter than I otherwise would. But for those that don't want the extra range, then other battery choices. They would just need to figure out battery mounts. The new bike could have different or wider ones and then an adapter to fit the current 6.5kWh or the new larger battery. The trick to different battery sizes is the different cell configurations and keeping the even cooling, etc.

How about 13kWh?

 

[Dirt-E]

.

solid state batteries are coming along nicely and hitting the retail market

Oh, and solid state can charge at t3mps a far bit below freezing.

I guess file this under "someday". Ha.

I would say that yes, while they're starting to become available, they're not in our products (motorcycles) yet, so my prediction is it'll take about 10 years for that to happen.

I also don't see it as a big weight savings, but rather, you would get more range. No matter how you slice it, range is the #1 reason people don't want to adopt electric bikes. Yes weight is a top concern as well, but nothing like range anxiety.

I wouldn't complain if I could charge at low temperatures. I'm not sure if it would ever be "good" for the batteries to do so, but if the tech allows for it, then sure. One less thing to keep people from adopting it is good.

Now, about the prices. Hmm... I'm never going to be happy spending more, obviously. But, when you actually get what you are paying for, then I would be interested to see where it goes in the next decade. I made the prediction back in 2017 that we were well over a decade away from EVs being accepted, and from the and reports I'm watching, we're still quite a ways out from that.

 

[Chadx]

How about 13kWh?

I recall seeing Royal Enfield and Stark entered into some agreement and was waiting to see what would com3 of it. I guess this is the first. I love when he points at the Stark gear case cover and says "Stark. I don't know what that is". Ha.

Two Stark 6.5kWh battery packs side by side like that is getting a bit wide for a dirtbike, but not crazy for a big dual sport.

Kind of neat to see.

This is similar to Polaris using existing Zero battery packs and motors in the Polaris Ranger EV UTV. And, they plan on using them in more, though Polaris seems to be backing off their original statement of 5 new EV models in different powersports lines in 5 years.