Questions: Track & Trail set-up. Charging & Transport.

[AgileMike]

.. Excellent!

Question: Why use bifacial panels when mounting on the cargo trailer roof? Is there any benefit? Aren’t they meant, ideally, for vertical mounting? or at least 4ft off the ground? I dunno.

I was really hoping someone would tell me I’m wrong about the Stark not having swap-able battery pack.

I just cut and pasted some cheapish panels from Signature Solar. You are correct, probably no need for bi-facial panels on trailer. There are lots of options approaching 400W for around $100.

 

[AgileMike]

Thank you!

Not having swap-able batteries stopped me from buying an e-mtn bike in the past.

As an R&D engineer myself (retired) I understand the importance, restrictions, & liabilities of design features.. BUT, swapping batteries does a total end-run around the greatest limitation of the Stark. (No, price isn’t the greatest limitation, lack of battery-performance, distance, is the largest.)

I’m now at the point where I think that I will not buy a Stark. At least not until they address this pivotal PROBLEM.

I would highly suggest you test ride both the Stark and an emtb. Both of them have enough range that batteries typically outrun a human battery. Unless you an Ironman type tri-athlete, it's highly unlikely you will need more battery or swappable batteries.

 

[Chadx]

I would highly suggest you test ride both the Stark and an emtb. Both of them have enough range that batteries typically outrun a human battery. Unless you an Ironman type tri-athlete, it's highly unlikely you will need more battery or swappable batteries.

True that I don't agree with @flailer regarding the Varg's non-fast-swappable battery being a "problem" with the bike since it's a design choice. If it's a deal breaker for a potential buyer, it simply means it doesn't meet the buyers needs. It's not a bike "problem" just like if the weight or seat height or price was a deal breaker for a buyer. Not a problem. Just doesn't meet the needs or use case of the potential buyer. That being said, I do like the option of quickly removing a battery for winter storage, charging in a location other than where the bike is, etc. I just understand the reasons Stark chose to not implement that ability in this bike.

@AgileMike, to your range argument I take exception. Ha. I'm average fitness and regularly run out of range on my eMTB (with big battery) in 20 to 35 miles depending on what percent of the ride I leave things in medium or high power assist setting. And I'm not letting the bike do all the work. My heart rate and work out level are on par with my regular MTB; I just travel three times as far on the eMTB. But it uses all the battery. My battery is swappable, but I'm doing long mountain out and backs, so I'm not lugging along another battery so wouldn't matter if the battery was swappable. But, like mentioned above, I like that it is removeable so I can charge it when off the bike in another location and store it indoors in climate controlled rather than in my uninsulated garage (90F to 100F in summer and -20F to -40F in the winter).

My current little electric dirtbike runs from 100% to 0% SOC in 20 to 30 miles taking it very easy on mountain easy mountain single track. Hence my search for a 50+ miles electric dirtbike these last few years. On our ICE dirtbikes and ATVs, we typically ride 40 to 55 miles when riding forest service roads and 35 - 45 miles if part of that is single track. Since one doesn't want to run electric batteries to zero every ride, a buffer of 10% to 20% is nice (and nice when one runs into a locked gate and have to backtrack rather than make a loop). Most range tests I've seen have the Varg range at 30 to 45miles of hilly, single track trail riding, or medium type trail riding which is my use case. I don't go out and do hours of "hard enduro" (at least not intentionally, but have when exploring new trails or taking that "short cut". Ha.)

I ordered Varg on day one but have not fulfilled my pre-order yet. I'm considering doing so with the current sale even though I know it won't have the range I need for more than 50% of our rides since I don't want to deplete the battery to less than 10% if I can help it. If I buy, I'll do my own tests, but my back-of-napkin math calculates I'll only be good for about 30 to 35 miles rides if I want to return to the trailhead at 10% to 20% SOC. And that is if I charge up to 100%. It would be nice to only charge to 95% (though if one waits until the night before, rather than leaving it sit at 100% SOC for days and weeks, it's it's not too much wear and tear).

I'd still have to use my ICE bikes and ATVs for the majority of our rides, unfortunately, but hopefully within 4 or 5 years, Stark or someone will come out with a high quality trail bike with an honest 60+ miles range which would be ideal to cover my typical 40 to 50 miles rides. I know it would be heavier and more expensive. I'm good with both. Just need the range and want a high quality, softly sprung suspension and bike. I've looked at the Artic Leopard options and the specs seem to be more aligned with what I'm after, but the quality doesn't quite seem to be there yet. But, with the current sale price of the Varg, considering what some of the other current offerings cost for mid to fullsize bikes with similar battery size and lesser build quality, the fit and finish of the Varg is a great value and the current sale price and I just may pull the trigger and make due with the range constraints until something better comes along.

 

[Beagle]

Absolutely, if your usual rides are anything like the loop in Stark latest enduro range vid, amateur and beginner riders got 50 km/30 miles (from 100 to 0!), that was between 2 and 3 hours of riding.

Stark range video(s)

This is the first of what is supposed to be a new series of videos, here are 2 "amateurs" Stark CEO and senior engineer, and 1 pro rider, official rider Eddie Karlsson, showing the range of the Stark Varg for hard enduro. Technical hard enduro, with low average speed, is arguably the best...

electricdirtriders.com

 

[flailer]

I would highly suggest you test ride both the Stark and an emtb. Both of them have enough range that batteries typically outrun a human battery. Unless you an Ironman type tri-athlete, it's highly unlikely you will need more battery or swappable batteries.

Thanks, but I disagree.

On the e-mtn one can still pedal once battery is gone, so the comparison isn’t straight across to e-moto.

But the primary way I disagree is on my all day motorcycle rides, or even just half day rides, with my buds. I’m talking about big loop rides. Yes, small sections, 10 to 20 miles, are typically Enduro difficulty level, it’s not a great ride without that challenge, BUT perhaps 70 - 80% of said ride is at speed, mostly dirt, but smoother. They simply don’t have the continuous the workout you envisioned in your post.

How many times in a day’s ride do you refill the tank of your ICE bike? See? It’s a compatibility issue.

I will still want to ride through the mtns, trees, pines, the aspens & ferns. And, here’s the kicker: an electric bike would be AMAZINGLY AWESOME in such a peaceful beautiful environment!!!

We are doing all day rides, 8 hour rides, in the middle of the week, several times a week. We have the time to do it right, and funding isn’t an issue. But how can I get around the logistics problem of distance? Doing loops helps a lot, but without swapping batteries, or bikes, I don’t see a solution.

 

[flailer]

Absolutely, if your usual rides are anything like the loop in Stark latest enduro range vid, amateur and beginner riders got 50 km/30 miles (from 100 to 0!), that was between 2 and 3 hours of riding.

Stark range video(s)

This is the first of what is supposed to be a new series of videos, here are 2 "amateurs" Stark CEO and senior engineer, and 1 pro rider, official rider Eddie Karlsson, showing the range of the Stark Varg for hard enduro. Technical hard enduro, with low average speed, is arguably the best...

electricdirtriders.com

Thanks. That’s a great video! Super sweet!

 

[Chadx]

Note: Edited my post a few posts back (This one: Questions: Track & Trail set-up. Charging & Transport.) to fix typos and re-worded for clarity (need to make the time to proofread better. Ha.)

 

[joer]

So I can't speak to trail/enduro riding, but at an MX track, I have a setup detailed here that works quite well. It does not have the ability to fill back up on-site via solar. It's just an extra "gas can" that I refill once I get back home. I've got ~85 hours on the bike now. Here's what I can tell you:

With 240v / 3.3kw charging, I've never had an issue where I ran out of juice before I was done riding. I get a touch less than 1% a minute recharging. My track does 20 minutes on then 20 minutes off. (Sometimes 40 minutes off if it's very busy.). That's been more than enough to keep the battery happy and me exhausted. Even when guest riders take the thing out for a session on top of my own sessions. For me and my particular use case, swappable batteries are just not needed. I obviously cannot speak for anyone else.

Taking a full on-board battery, plus another 5kwh is sufficient on most days. I have a second 5 kwh battery and when it's very very muddy, that second battery comes into play. (I bought the second battery before I had the bike out of my living room. There was a very long lead time to get them from China.) That second battery may be handy if I ever road trip to another track and camp there for a weekend. But it's really a luxury and not a requirement. Most of the time, I only bring one with me.

A lot of this will depend on how advanced a rider you are. I ride at 48hp and I go through about 30% of the battery in a 20 minute session on a normal day. But if you're a 60-80hp kinda guy and you're always going full send, then you'll deplete the battery faster and that 1% a minute recharge rate may be insufficient.

I would not bother with 120v track-side charging unless you have a very long time between sessions. It's just too slow. It's definitely a "over night once you get home" kind of charge.

All told, I love this bike. A lot. I'm trying to sell my KTM 250 4-stroke. Besides how much I love riding it, I also have no interest anymore in cleaning air filters or changing oil all the time.

 

[flailer]

So I can't speak to trail/enduro riding, but at an MX track, I have a setup detailed here that works quite well. It does not have the ability to fill back up on-site via solar. It's just an extra "gas can" that I refill once I get back home. I've got ~85 hours on the bike now. Here's what I can tell you:

With 240v / 3.3kw charging, I've never had an issue where I ran out of juice before I was done riding. I get a touch less than 1% a minute recharging. My track does 20 minutes on then 20 minutes off. (Sometimes 40 minutes off if it's very busy.). That's been more than enough to keep the battery happy and me exhausted. Even when guest riders take the thing out for a session on top of my own sessions. For me and my particular use case, swappable batteries are just not needed. I obviously cannot speak for anyone else.

Taking a full on-board battery, plus another 5kwh is sufficient on most days. I have a second 5 kwh battery and when it's very very muddy, that second battery comes into play. (I bought the second battery before I had the bike out of my living room. There was a very long lead time to get them from China.) That second battery may be handy if I ever road trip to another track and camp there for a weekend. But it's really a luxury and not a requirement. Most of the time, I only bring one with me.

A lot of this will depend on how advanced a rider you are. I ride at 48hp and I go through about 30% of the battery in a 20 minute session on a normal day. But if you're a 60-80hp kinda guy and you're always going full send, then you'll deplete the battery faster and that 1% a minute recharge rate may be insufficient.

I would not bother with 120v track-side charging unless you have a very long time between sessions. It's just too slow. It's definitely a "over night once you get home" kind of charge.

All told, I love this bike. A lot. I'm trying to sell my KTM 250 4-stroke. Besides how much I love riding it, I also have no interest anymore in cleaning air filters or changing oil all the time.

Wow! Great info! Thanks.

I rode through an area unknown to me today, Aspen & Pine forest , for about 3+ hours. I’m often covering new ground, new areas, like that.

As it was a new trail where I was going, unknown where the dirt roads & trails lead to, I would have been in a panic mode, battery-performance-anxiety, bad mindset, around the 40 minute mark.

Thanks so much for the discussion guys, but I now see that even the shortest loops I do are far too much distance for e-bikes.

 

[joer]

Wow! Great info! Thanks.

I rode through an area unknown to me today, Aspen & Pine forest , for about 3+ hours. I’m often covering new ground, new areas, like that.

As it was a new trail where I was going, unknown where the dirt roads & trails lead to, I would have been in a panic mode, battery-performance-anxiety, bad mindset, around the 40 minute mark.

Thanks so much for the discussion guys, but I now see that even the shortest loops I do are far too much distance for e-bikes.

Yeah, one nice thing about going to a track is you just go around in circles. You're never too far from your car/truck/trailer and a top up.

I don't ride trails, so I cannot speak to it personally, but I'm told that the battery usage is drastically less riding trails vs MX track, since you're not holding the throttle WFO all the time.

 

[Chaconne]

Yeah, one nice thing about going to a track is you just go around in circles. You're never too far from your car/truck/trailer and a top up.

I don't ride trails, so I cannot speak to it personally, but I'm told that the battery usage is drastically less riding trails vs MX track, since you're not holding the throttle WFO all the time.

Yes and most folks not riding moto aren't using the Stark with Taddy Blazusiak skills. A lot depends on how you ride the bike. In slow tough gnarl riding the Stark will usually outlast most rider's endurance. Long desert riding or big loop mileage might be different though.