Reduce Drag Stark

[imchrisf]

I have been riding dirtbikes for many years, but not really repairing or working on them. I have been riding Mountain Bikes for just as long and work on them all the time. I like it when my wheels spin freely front and back so I have no drag if at all possible. My Stark is a different story. The rear wheel does not spin freely. I am not an idiot, I know the chain and all the heavy stuff will never let it be like a Mountain Bike, but wouldn't it be worth it to remove every bit of drag we can so our precious battery can last longer? Is it even possible? Mine does not even go one rotation on its own if I push it by hand. Is that normal? What can I do to make it as smooth as possible? Sorry, you all probably know this.

 

[FYR]

I have been riding dirtbikes for many years, but not really repairing or working on them. I have been riding Mountain Bikes for just as long and work on them all the time. I like it when my wheels spin freely front and back so I have no drag if at all possible. My Stark is a different story. The rear wheel does not spin freely. I am not an idiot, I know the chain and all the heavy stuff will never let it be like a Mountain Bike, but wouldn't it be worth it to remove every bit of drag we can so our precious battery can last longer? Is it even possible? Mine does not even go one rotation on its own if I push it by hand. Is that normal? What can I do to make it as smooth as possible? Sorry, you all probably know this.

I too experienced this and shared the same concern when my Varg was new. My assumption was/is that most of it is due to the direct drive to the electric motor as well as the mechanical advantage of the gear reduction. There is no separation of the drive from the driven wheel like there is when pulling the clutch or shifting into neutral on a traditional motorbike. I will say though, that after several hours and a decent amount of miles ridden, that it has freed up a bunch and is nowhere near what it was like when brand new.

 

[Philip]

I am confused what you guys are talking about. Drag with the chain installed or not? You cannot make the motor spin freely, but with the chain removed it shouldn't be too bad.

Make sure the brake caliper is centered and the pads don't drag. Polish the wheel spacers and lube the seals. Install a better chain (from a bicycle, lol)!

 

[FYR]

Hmmm... I was assuming the OP was referring to the bike being as-ridden. Yes, my rear wheel spins like a top without a chain attached!

 

[imchrisf]

I am refering to the spin when on the stand. I have not tried spining it without the chain yet. I will try that. BTW, there is no master link on this chain. Should I add one? I am used to being able to take off the chain easily on my MTB's. I had not expected that the motor would have any resistance when powered off. So if it is still dragging without chain i can look at my brake setup. My Varg is under 10 hours if that helps. I also have 2 wheels one is an 18 with a larger softer tire. I bought a second rotor from Stark and mounted it as directed. I have not changed the brake mount, since it seems like that does not depend on the wheel size, only the rotor size. I will let you know how it goes. I have been riding eMTB for a while, and I can tell you that every bit of drag removed can make a difference in battery longevity. Thats why I am so interested in it. Plus, I am 260 LB and want as long of a ride as I can get.

 

[Theo]

I had not expected that the motor would have any resistance when powered off.

Here, @ 14:29, there is an explanation about the spin loss that we experience in the permanent magnets motors like the ones in our Vargs:

BTW, there is no master link on this chain. Should I add one?

If you want to try, make sure that the chain guide is wide enough for it; some people have written that it's not if I recall correctly.

Anyhow, super interesting topic!

I like learning about technical stuff like power usage, torque, drag, etc. and I do it trying to use the most reliable sources of information that I can find. Here is my opinion but remember that I don't even have a degree and that I am not a professional in this field.
Surely trying to increase efficiency is important on an electric dirtbike, but I think there is little that we can do.
• On asphalt, the greatest amount of drag is the aerodynamic one and this holds true for motorcycles, cars, bycicles...; the force of this kind of drag is estimated to be directly proportional to the square of the speed and the power consumption is directly proportional to the cube of its speed. Typically, at top speed something like 95% of the power is used to overcome this drag. For example, a 30 HP 125cc 2T sportsbike can have a top speed of 100 mph because at that speed it takes almost 30 HP just to move through the air, but in order to double the speed in theory you need 2³=8 times that power: 240 HP for 200 mph; as you can see, it's decently realistic. Now a dirtbike usually stays below 50 mph, but its Cx is aweful: the shape is very far from a drop and the front wheel has knobs and has a huge gap between them and the fender; surely the turbulence is awful. Electric cars like the Mercedes EQXX have very refined shapes with covered wheels and if there are mirrors instead of cameras probably that's only because of regulations.
I don't know whether hand guards can imporve the Cx.
• The drag generated by the knobs with the ground has to be accepted since I think that nobody would trade grip for better efficiency and personally I wouldn't know what tyres to use for that anyways.
• Of course at Stark they have already done their best to save weight; the lighter tubes should especially help saving energy because they draw energy just to be spun and, while my front one failed maybe at the 4th trackday, the rear one is still good after 52 hours and Wass says that they have improved them, so maybe you could give them a try.
• Interestingly, Stark didn't choose an oringless chain which would save some energy.
• Maybe it would be worth to invest in some lower friction wheel bearings and grease seals if they are available.

 

[imchrisf]

Thanks, that is all very helpful. I also enjoy geeking out on this stuff. Some is a bit above my level as I am an IT Pro and not much real world engineering training. (Other than watching lots of Mythbusters and "How its Made" and the like.) I would agree that if most of my riding was at 20 - 50 Mph the aero factors would far outweigh any small improvements in drag on the rear wheel. When I am messing around on the road, I can really feel the turbulence and pushback on any speed higher than 35 or more. However, since I am primarily riding trails at 5-15 mph, I think the equations change. When climbing up a hill, or rolling down the other side, the limiters are 2 IMO. First is overall weight. Bike + Me. I am 260 and even losing 20-30 LBS will noticably help range. Second is any resistance from moving parts, Wheel, Chain, tires, brakes drive motor. At the speeds I run this stuff could make a difference I think. Especially since any energy lost to unnecesarry resistance can't be put to propultion, or regen and is just left on the side of the road. (Metaphorically) I have seen blocks of wood with polished axels beat the most aerodynamic pinewood derby cars when they dont have their wheels and axels set up right. I would guess spending a bunch of money on expensive chains, bearings, seals or etc could be a waste, but polishing, straightening and replacing worn stuff could be on the right track. I just don't have enough knowlege of how these motorized thiings work yet. Thanks for all the help, I have already learned a lot.

 

[markhamr]

There is a way to improve range ride slow
or downhill only
A quality x chain would help
as for wind drag forget it maybe a sail
at least you will learn what happens with wind angle
and it's effects
rider position would gain you more
Right now check everything is rolling smooth clean lubricated
right torque settings
I prefer endless chains
a spare links just for when the clip falls off
I have not had a probelm with the tubes
Does anyone know if those wheels
weigh less than a set of dirt stars
My 23 husky 450 wheels must be a close fit
although more for the kool look i suspect

 

[Erwin P]

To reduce weight you could go 19' at the rear. The rim is way lighter than the tyre.

The OEM tubes are very light, but i broke the 21' on the first ride and the 18 on the second. However that was the November 23 model. In December 25 i ordered a new 19' wheel and pulled the tube immediately so i could use it as a spare. This was however much thicker than the old one and had a reinforcement at the rimlock location, exactly where both of my tubes got punctured.

 

[happyinmotion]

The biggest variable factor here is going to be tyre pressure.

Riding round here is pretty slippery and I run down to 3 psi. That hits range noticably. And when I punctured and ran on zero psi (coz tubliss) then that bumped up drag by maybe 25%

If you want less drag then run higher pressures. That means lower grip but hey, don't get something for nothing.

 

[Chaconne]

Even ICE motorcycles have a fair amount of "drag" even in neutral. You are spinning the wheel against the heavy chain and some of the heavy duty transmission all the time (at the very least to the countershaft). There is a significant increase in "drag" when you place an ICE bike in gear and use the clutch to "free" the rear wheel since even more of the transmission is spinning. In fact, early electric start ICE dirtbikes were notorious for killing batteries on the trail when using the clutch to decouple (rather than neutral) because the engine along with clutching system added more "drag" and required more energy from the starter.

I am not sure how E-MTBs drive and decouple but at least to me the Stark's drive system is similar to ICE motorcycles only without neutral. I would guess motorcycle and E MTB design likely vary greatly as the powerplants deliver significantly different levels of energy and the use cases are somewhat different as well (I am assuming the E MTB has similar use cases to a non E, i.e. closer to human powered).

Unfortunately, the Stark does not offer a neutral option so it is like an ICE bike in gear with a clutch all the time when it comes to freewheeling and potentially pushing. Adding a master link is a good idea depending on your riding conditions in my view. If you ride on a closed MX track it is probably not required since the distance to push your bike in case of a problem is likely not too great, but if you ride in areas where you may have to push a longer distance like out on a trail in case of a problem a master link would be a good idea since removing the chain is really the only neutral. You could carry a small chain breaker as well. None of it will be fun...

I have had a few failures in the woods with my Varg, fortunately I have been able to make it out without too much pushing. My main enduro area keeps me within 10 miles of my vehicle so I keep a chain breaker either in my vehicle or in my pack. Lastly, I doubt much substantial "drag" can be reduced overall with changes in parts like bearings, wheels, chains and etc. as the drive system contributes the majority of the "drag" and this is common in motorcycle design whether E or ICE.

 

[DaveAusNor]

Thanks Chaconne, this makes a lot of sense. I've had problems with all my bikes at some point in time where I needed to push. Sometimes running the bike and jumping on to roll it where i'm going. No real neutral without taking to chain off sounds like it would make this a challenge. I guess the quick link is the best solution. thanks.

 

[Chaconne]

Thanks Chaconne, this makes a lot of sense. I've had problems with all my bikes at some point in time where I needed to push. Sometimes running the bike and jumping on to roll it where i'm going. No real neutral without taking to chain off sounds like it would make this a challenge. I guess the quick link is the best solution. thanks.

I wish Stark had included some kind of neutral or disengage. I know some people have been advocating for a clutch but in my experience I haven't needed a clutch for riding since the Stark throttle system is awesome. Maybe just some kind of disengage at the countershaft would be a great addition.

I also wish there was a separate "kill switch" directly inline not through the power switching system. The multimode power buttons are too unreliable for a death defying struggle with a whiskey or stuck throttle.

My Stark has been super reliable but I have had trouble with mud and dirt invasion of the buttons and the throttle itself from crashes in the deep muddy gnarl where the bars go grip deep or deeper into the mud.

Second ride this year on East Coast US yesterday. I did ride on the West Coast earlier this year but that was desert riding on ICE bikes. The Stark was stored from mid Dec until early March. Mud season usually lasts until late June here.