Stark VARG suspension choices


Chadx

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[Noting that mods pulled my post out of the main thread and started this suspension thread]

Stark Varg
Two price points available: $11,900 for 60hp option; $12,900 for 80hp option. The only other option that has a cost associated with it is the $100 sidestand. The free options are: colors: red, gray or white. Rear wheel: 18" enduro or 19" motocross. Rear Brake lever: choose left handlebar or right foot. Suspension: Choose between 7 suspension spring rates based on rider weight (10 lb increments).

On Tuesday 12/14, I ordered a gray one in 80hp config with 18" Enduro rear wheel and a side stand. We've had a pair of Surron X for a few years, but these last two years, I have been trying to be patient as I waited for the Surron Storm, but them came this. I'll only use this for trail riding like I do my Surron X, ICE bikes and ATVs. I would have bought a KTM Freeride by now but the 20 mile range from the 3.9 kWh battery won't cut it for trail riding. I get 30 - 35 miles out of the Surron X so if range isn't further than that, not starter. The Varg has 6kWh battery. I think Alta is 5.8 kWh, KTM is 3.9, Surron Storm is 4.6 and Surron X is 1.9 kWh.

My order has estimated fulfillment date of 9/24/2022 (though I expect that to stretch out into 2023, which I'm fine with). I normally don't like to be the Guinea pig, but just too anxious for a fullsize EV dirtbike so I'm willing to take a chance on this. Nearly bought an Alta 3 times (once right before the announcement they were closing and twice after on the used market) but couldn't get myself to pull the trigger since the company was no more. The same fate may happen with Stark, but at least at the time of delivery, one can expect them to be around for at least a few years. Ha.

A lot has changed since Alta was founded in 2009/2010. Final designs and production prep in 2013 and released in 2016. 2013 is 8 years ago! A lot has changed in that time (both tech and EV interest/acceptance). If Alta came out today, they likely would have survived. Maybe Stark will be the one that survives. If nothing else, hoping this is the catalyst that pushes the big established OEMs to release something similar. The competition will benefit design and economy of scale will benefit price points. KTM is just dipping their toes with the KTM Freeride and the small bikes, but they don't seem too interested in advancing or marketing the Freeride much less a full size EV motocross bike or enduro. If the Varg is well received, then perhaps that will change.

As for tech, pricepoint, etc. the Varg seems to be in a better place. Part of that is simply because ICE bike prices have gone up so much while EV tech has apparently allowed those prices to remain about the same. The price on the Varg is about what a KTM 450 costs and even the Japanese bike are within $2,000. Part of that is likely the factory direct sales. Compare that to the huge cost spread between ICE and the Alta. When Alta were $15,000 and later down to $12,000, you could by a KTM 450 for $8,000 - $9000 and a YZ450 for $7,000. So depending on what you were comparing and the year, the Alta was anywhere from 33% to 100% more expensive. With the price of ICE bikes now up to $9,500 - $12,000 (2022 YZ450 Racing Edition MSRP: $9,799. 2022 KTM 450 SX-F Factory Edition MSRP: $11,699), the two pricepoints of the Varg ($11,900 60hp or $12,900 80hp) won't weight much into the decision like it did just 4 or 5 years ago due to the spread between ICE and Alta. And even the weight being down to 242lbs is about the same as an ICE 450 with full gas tank.

The battery design is interesting as it took into consideration cooling of the cells. Some of the Alta cells are buried within the pack, but this design can, reportedly, keep all the cells cool and avoid overheating and reducing the power. They also note that they use a higher power motor because electric motors run most efficiently in the middle of their range, so they use a 80hp vs a motor that maxes out at 50hp for example so you are spending more time in the middle of the motors capability. Lots of other little details that will be interesting to see in person.

I ordered with the KYB suspension for my weight. They have 7 weight ranges in 10lb increments. After thinking about it, I realized these are sprung for motocross and mine will never see a track; Only enduro and trail riding. So I've inquired about changing my orders suspension to one or two weight ranges lower in an effort to emulate an enduro or even softer dual sport spring rate rather than stiff motocross feel.
 

LordExplorer

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I ordered with the KYB suspension for my weight. They have 7 weight ranges in 10lb increments. After thinking about it, I realized these are sprung for motocross and mine will never see a track; Only enduro and trail riding. So I've inquired about changing my orders suspension to one or two weight ranges lower in an effort to emulate an enduro or even softer dual sport spring rate rather than stiff motocross feel.
Let us know what you hear back on this. I’ll be using mine for trail riding as well. Picked the suspension setting for my fat ass but you bring up a good point.
 

Chadx

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I received the following reply: "The Stark VARG uses KYB suspension, even if the springs are for your weight you are going to be able to make it softer using the Compression and rebound clickers."

Obviously one can't make spring rate "softer" using compression and rebound clickers. Those will only effect....compression and rebound. I would have suspected they mention preload in their first reply, but didn't even get that. I didn't go into sag or other details in my original email as my expectations were that a first tier customer service rep wouldn't necessary have the technical knowledge (unless they themselves were an avid rider) to fully understand my question/concern. Rather than continue the discussion, I simply replied again and have requested to change my suspension choice two categories lighter.
from: 75-80 KG / 165-176 LBS
to: 65-70 KG / 143-154 LBS

That should work for the type of riding I'm doing. I've spent time on motorcross bikes, enduro bikes and dual sports on the trails I regularly ride and even at a fast pace, the typical stock motocross springs are too stiff and that with me weighing around 175 which is the target rider weight for most OEM motocross suspension. The miles I put on my dual sports over my other bikes, the more I grew to appreciate the cushy suspension. I still like Enduro spring rate for control at a fast pace, but for the majority of riding that I do, I'd prefer softer suspension similar to my dual sports. I ride with guys on all different types of bikes and we switch off now and then and so have gotten side by side comparisons on different spring rates between the classes of bikes on the same trails/same day. That is always eye opening how big of a difference that is in comfort, fatigue, performance, etc. It's all about trade offs, how one is riding the bike and terrain. And since my Varg will be primarily for shorter (meaning less than 50 mile) rides and more easy riding, I'll regret not having it set up cush. Since it's a free option from the factory, I might as well take advantage of it and hopefully avoid time and expense of reworking it after I receive it. We'll see if they let me adjust my order and then once received, if I made the right choice.
 

C5tor

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I received the following reply: "The Stark VARG uses KYB suspension, even if the springs are for your weight you are going to be able to make it softer using the Compression and rebound clickers."

Obviously one can't make spring rate "softer" using compression and rebound clickers. Those will only effect....compression and rebound. I would have suspected they mention preload in their first reply, but didn't even get that. I didn't go into sag or other details in my original email as my expectations were that a first tier customer service rep wouldn't necessary have the technical knowledge (unless they themselves were an avid rider) to fully understand my question/concern. Rather than continue the discussion, I simply replied again and have requested to change my suspension choice two categories lighter.
from: 75-80 KG / 165-176 LBS
to: 65-70 KG / 143-154 LBS

That should work for the type of riding I'm doing. I've spent time on motorcross bikes, enduro bikes and dual sports on the trails I regularly ride and even at a fast pace, the typical stock motocross springs are too stiff and that with me weighing around 175 which is the target rider weight for most OEM motocross suspension. The miles I put on my dual sports over my other bikes, the more I grew to appreciate the cushy suspension. I still like Enduro spring rate for control at a fast pace, but for the majority of riding that I do, I'd prefer softer suspension similar to my dual sports. I ride with guys on all different types of bikes and we switch off now and then and so have gotten side by side comparisons on different spring rates between the classes of bikes on the same trails/same day. That is always eye opening how big of a difference that is in comfort, fatigue, performance, etc. It's all about trade offs, how one is riding the bike and terrain. And since my Varg will be primarily for shorter (meaning less than 50 mile) rides and more easy riding, I'll regret not having it set up cush. Since it's a free option from the factory, I might as well take advantage of it and hopefully avoid time and expense of reworking it after I receive it. We'll see if they let me adjust my order and then once received, if I made the right choice.
Clearly the answer is not to change the spring rates. Just start hitting the drive-thru more often and put on 20 extra pounds. That will plush up the ride to the perfect comfy zone with zero mechanical changes, and you’ll have a bit of extra crash cushioning to boot.
 

Chadx

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Ha. But buying enough food to not only put on but also maintain that extra weight might cost more than respringing. At least a respring is a one and done expense. Ha.
 

Redwolf

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Ha. But buying enough food to not only put on but also maintain that extra weight might cost more than respringing. At least a respring is a one and done expense. Ha.
So what you are saying is that I might not be using the most cost effective approach to softening my suspension... An interesting perspective.
 

F451

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You should order the springs for your current weight, you want to be able to set the suspension sag to be set for your weight. Too light of springs and you won't be able to set proper sag.

Control compression (firmness) and rebound with the clickers. KYB suspension is amazing right out of the box and very versatile. The clickers will get you were you want to be whether you're plonking on the trails or hammering an MX/SX track.

25 lbs lighter then my MXR!
Reportedly greater range. Fully programmable power, torque, regen. KYB suspension with option for rider weight springs!

Ordered one yesterday. 18" rear wheel, 80 hp, LHRB, 210 lb spring rates. Can't wait to get it.
 

C5tor

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Ha. But buying enough food to not only put on but also maintain that extra weight might cost more than respringing. At least a respring is a one and done expense. Ha.
I’ve been using this method for years, and it seems to be no trouble at all maintaining my plush ride physique.
 

Chadx

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You should order the springs for your current weight, you want to be able to set the suspension sag to be set for your weight. Too light of springs and you won't be able to set proper sag.
Control compression (firmness) and rebound with the clickers. KYB suspension is amazing right out of the box and very versatile. The clickers will get you were you want to be whether you're plonking on the trails or hammering an MX/SX track.

Good input. Understood that I'll risk being sitting fairly deep into the max appropriate sag or perhaps even a over max recommended sag range. I actually did that with my primary easy going trail riding dual sport and it worked quite well for the specific use case for that bike.

One more interesting data point is that I did several trail rides with my 2020 YZ450F motocross bike for shake out before I proceeded with my lastest snowbike conversion (the last time it will ever have wheels on it just like with my previous two snowbike builds). I think the 2020 YZ450F KYB springs were slightly stiffer than previous years, but going from memory there. I didn't bother to change preload on the bike or set sag since it would all be coming off after a couple shake out rides, but I did twist the compression and rebound and even with both at the softest settings, it was still a stiff motorcross spring compared to my enduro and dual sport bikes and their category-appropriate springs. So that is on what I was basing my assumption that Motocross KYB for my weight will be much too stiff for my trail riding use case of the Varg.

Now I'm second guessing myself. Ha. But still seems it would be safer to move softer. After all, the bottom of the range I ordered is 165lbs and top of the range I might change to is 154lbs and that is only an 11lbs spread, so if sag ends up outside of perfect range, it shouldn't be by much.
 

Philip

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I am wondering how closely Stark will actually be able to guess the spring rates and the damping rates that riders desire.

Very few OEM suspensions are rideable from the showroom floor. Many come with a weird front/rear balance, most come undersprung, good only for slow beginner riders (who do not buy many new bikes), and not good for fast pros and fat vet riders (who buy most of the new bikes).

The Alta Redshift MX/EX came with spring rates that were good only for slow and very light woods riders. The MXR came with an air fork, so the fork spring rate was adjustable, and surprisingly the rear spring fit pretty much everybody regardless of weight or skill. The OEM damping settings on the fork and the shock could have been better, but they were not preventing anyone from racing competitively or enjoying the bike safely.

The Alta had a unique weight and a unique weight distribution. None of the OEM/KTM/WP or aftermarket spring rates or valving stacks worked. Everything had to be tuned from scratch.

Surprisingly, I was able to fit a stock 2015 YZ450F KYB SSS fork on my MX and ride it pretty well. The KYB SSS suspension has proven to be remarkably suitable for a wide variety of riders of different weights and skill levels. Let's hope that the Varg's KYB SSS is enough within the ballpark that we won't have to take it to suspension revalving shops immediately.
 

TCMB371

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I am wondering how closely Stark will actually be able to guess the spring rates and the damping rates that riders desire.

Very few OEM suspensions are rideable from the showroom floor. Many come with a weird front/rear balance, most come undersprung, good only for slow beginner riders (who do not buy many new bikes), and not good for fast pros and fat vet riders (who buy most of the new bikes).

The Alta Redshift MX/EX came with spring rates that were good only for slow and very light woods riders. The MXR came with an air fork, so the fork spring rate was adjustable, and surprisingly the rear spring fit pretty much everybody regardless of weight or skill. The OEM damping settings on the fork and the shock could have been better, but they were not preventing anyone from racing competitively or enjoying the bike safely.

The Alta had a unique weight and a unique weight distribution. None of the OEM/KTM/WP or aftermarket spring rates or valving stacks worked. Everything had to be tuned from scratch.

Surprisingly, I was able to fit a stock 2015 YZ450F KYB SSS fork on my MX and ride it pretty well. The KYB SSS suspension has proven to be remarkably suitable for a wide variety of riders of different weights and skill levels. Let's hope that the Varg's KYB SSS is enough within the ballpark that we won't have to take it to suspension revalving shops immediately.

I fully expect that i'll be revalving the suspension on mine right away, like i do with all my bikes, but at least it'll come with the correct springs for my weight (assuming they have it right).
 

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