Terrific - but will it be effective off-road ?

[Number Six]

So yeah, I'm a new guy to the forum & have never owned an electric bike. Hello one & all.
Pony'd up my hunnert bucks within hours of the initial presentation of this Varg machine.
The prospect of a far lighter Alta concept with KYB suspension, user programmable power delivery & ( perhaps ) significantly extended run time was enough to commit.
Current ride is '17 250xcw, our riding is enduro that leans much more towards the tight & technical as opposed to fast & swoopy.

Compared to a current traditional 2S enduro bike, what kind of of expectations should one have on how precisely the power can be modulated on an E bike ?
Will loose, wet, rocky climbs be the thing of nightmares ? Or will the ability to alter the Varg's mapping in the various ways claimed be sufficient to get grip in sketchy conditions ?
I watched with interest the testing video & then the hour long race video of Ty Tremain @ Edzburg, there were several instances, notably the 1st big rock garden, where even a rider of his caliber appeared to be struggling mightily to get consistent grip & be able to maintain momentum. Several other 2S bikes bounced right by in that section.

Interested to hear the opinions / experiences on the subject from Alta riders that have logged off road hours .. thanks loads guys.

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[Philip]

Slippery, muddy, and inconsistent traction situations is where Alta shines the most. Altas have dominated ice races and muddy supermoto competitions. I climbed loose gravel hills that I was even afraid to look at, or attempt on my 2-stroke Husky with a Rekluse. I had a lot of fun in all muddy conditions where an ICE bike would be struggling to maintain traction and momentum. I have no experience riding on wet rocks, but riding dry loose rocks was pretty easy because the wheel does not spin up and the bike does not loose momentum when the traction is lost and then suddenly regained.

 

[Trialsman]

The only place I have found to be an issue is when you are in a mud rut and your rear wheel stops against a root that is maybe a foot jump up. From stationary, it is tough to keep the wheel from spinning yet get enough to get over the root. An electric clutch would work wonders here. I still may play around designing a clutch for these bikes. The Alta will make you a smoother rider as your "throttle" hand becomes adept to the subtle needs.

 

[blbills]

I've gotta chime in here guys... I just want to lead by saying that the Alta was the most fun I've ever had on two wheels. PERIOD.

It shined everywhere BUT on those loose, slippery, gnarly, uphills. I remember being unable to conquer this particular hill with my buddies. I drained 2/3 of the battery hitting it time after time determined to make it to the top. Didn't happen. I borrowed one of my buddy's 300XC's and went right up it. No big deal at all.

This shocked me. And I still think about that experience even to this day. I've only come to partial conclusions as to why the Alta wasn't able to cut it:

1) The Alta was designed for MX and "hard" enduro was either just an afterthought or a lower priority. (I know that Ty was racing etc...)

2) Traction control. I remember hearing about some custom controller parameters that were loaded onto the bike that went to Erzberg but I don't think there was ever a mode provided to the general public that would prevent wheel-spin in these types of environments. Much more R&D was needed in that department.

3) My Alta was pre-AER fork and I never pulled the trigger on getting work done on the suspension. The second that rear wheel broke contact with the ground it is all over in those situations. I bet proper suspension would have gone a long ways.


I am super stoked about the VARG. I pre-ordered it the second I saw it. There has been a void in my life ever since I sold the Alta a few years back. Looks like Stark is going down a very similar development/marketing path that Alta did so that's great. I think we'll need to be a little patient out of the gate before its dialed in for the back woods...

 

[Number Six]

Have fitted my last 3 bikes with a recluse & if the power delivery of an electric machine is at least as user friendly as the gas / rekluse combination, that'll be just fine.
Sure hope the specifications being touted are manifested in the production versions.
The stated weight is about the same as a modern 2 stroke with a couple gallons of gas onboard.

Do the Altas typically feel lighter on the trail than they actually are given they lack most all the engine components that add up to lots of reciprocating mass ?

 

[Philip]

Do the Altas typically feel lighter on the trail than they actually are given they lack most all the engine components that add up to lots of reciprocating mass ?

I would say the Alta feels like a 125cc in tight turns.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

I've gotta chime in here guys... I just want to lead by saying that the Alta was the most fun I've ever had on two wheels. PERIOD.

It shined everywhere BUT on those loose, slippery, gnarly, uphills. I remember being unable to conquer this particular hill with my buddies. I drained 2/3 of the battery hitting it time after time determined to make it to the top. Didn't happen. I borrowed one of my buddy's 300XC's and went right up it. No big deal at all.

This shocked me. And I still think about that experience even to this day. I've only come to partial conclusions as to why the Alta wasn't able to cut it:

1) The Alta was designed for MX and "hard" enduro was either just an afterthought or a lower priority. (I know that Ty was racing etc...)

2) Traction control. I remember hearing about some custom controller parameters that were loaded onto the bike that went to Erzberg but I don't think there was ever a mode provided to the general public that would prevent wheel-spin in these types of environments. Much more R&D was needed in that department.

3) My Alta was pre-AER fork and I never pulled the trigger on getting work done on the suspension. The second that rear wheel broke contact with the ground it is all over in those situations. I bet proper suspension would have gone a long ways.


I am super stoked about the VARG. I pre-ordered it the second I saw it. There has been a void in my life ever since I sold the Alta a few years back. Looks like Stark is going down a very similar development/marketing path that Alta did so that's great. I think we'll need to be a little patient out of the gate before its dialed in for the back woods...

I call it electric overspin. You can see it on Poskitt's videos, too if you know what to look for.

If you can keep any sort of momentum and weighting of the back tire, electric bikes work great and many times are easier to climb stuff on. If the terrain or your suspension kills your momentum and knocks your feet off the pegs during a climb, the fun begins. If you are on wet roots or loose rocks at a standstill, electric overspin makes it hard to get going again. Rock and root gardens and chunky, moving hillclimbs where both of your tires end up in a hole at the same time is the achilles heel of the electric dirtbike.

I think its a really hard scenario to write a map profile to deal with. You need a creeping tractor to go from zero to a 1/2 mph but then you need the ability to instantly burst from 1/2 mph to 3 or 4 to attack the next ledge your front tire wants to stall up against. If you are pushing with your feet to bulldog the bike forward, you are by definition not weighting the rear tire.

If the Stark has the virtual flywheel adjustability, it will help but I'd like to see the 'virtual clutch' portion of the fancy phone app. I think the bike will need to know that you are at a standstill by using front wheel speed data to compare it to rear wheel spin speed to make adjustments. This approach is going to affect other use scenarios like stunting, steering with the rear wheel and changing pitch midair like the MX guys need to do. So it needs to be a 'only on when you need it' type thing, a push button or lever. Does the Stark have a front wheel speed sensor?

I'm resisting the Stark because I need another electric bike without a clutch like a hole in my pocket But since we have a year to wait anyways, I'd like to help Trialsman move forward on his Alta clutch project, if possible.

 

[Number Six]

Lots to digest & some differing viewpoints as expected regarding off road capability. Figured Alta owners would be the best source for real opinions. Thanks !

I would say the Alta feels like a 125cc in tight turns.

^^^ This ! Reason enough perhaps as the older I get, the heavier even a 250 two stroke feels in technical terrain. So an even lighter electric version ... wow, game changing.

On the other hand, filed under 'there's no free lunch' ;

If you are on wet roots or loose rocks at a standstill, electric overspin makes it hard to get going again / I'm resisting the Stark because I need another electric bike without a clutch like a hole in my pocket

Oh-Kay then, fair warning I suppose. Usually it is possible to keep the wheels mostly turning even in the nasty stuff, If I'm coming to a complete stop its due to; (1) balking at a scary obstacle, or (2) a crash. So it's not all that often. ( riding buddies might disagree with that statement once the laughter subsides )
Again, perhaps the mappable power delivery & flywheel effect will mitigate the uncontrolled 'zing' & subsequent wheelspin to a manageable level ?

There was brief mention of an enduro version Stark with lighting & clutch but thats likely a couple years away at minimum & would surely come with added weight.
I briefly considered one of the E-Motion 'escape' models as those have a hydraulic clutch, plenty of power & are 187 lbs - then I took a good look at my pre & post operative wrist x-rays that resulted from the last time I owned a bike with a short wheelbase combined with a steep steering angle & used it to go bombing over rough terrain.
I'll stick with conventional chassis geometry & up-to-the-task suspension components, which the Stark design appears to possess.

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[leeo45]

A few thoughts based on my own experience with the ALTA. Obviously, I don't have any experience with the VARG.

I can ride the ALTA comfortably and confidently through difficult terrain, steep hills, and rocky single-track that would wear me out on my KTM 400XCW. Both bikes have the full KTM World "works" suspension set up for enduro and my weight, height, and ability (or lack thereof). The MXR has an 18" rear wheel and a LHRB+foot brake. I've ridden and raced the KTM with both the manual clutch and the currently installed Rekluse Pro auto clutch. They are both basically set up as enduro race bikes so it should be a fair comparison. I do like the smaller, quicker feel of the KTM frame and rider position, however once moving the ALTA wins.

A very key thing on the ALTA when riding technical terrain is precise throttle control with good arm position. Outside of terrain that strongly resembles a formal trials competition, I haven't felt there would be any benefit to having a clutch. In fact, for most riding not needing a clutch is a huge advantage. The only two real improvements I would like on the ALTA for woods riding are increased range so that I could use it in races and a steering stabilizer.

 

[Oded]

Slow technical terrain is what the Alta does best in my opinion. Mastering the throttle (not easy for those who have an ICE bike background, and used to tame the power with the clutch) is the key.

 

[blbills]

Slow technical terrain is what the Alta does best in my opinion. Mastering the throttle (not easy for those who have an ICE bike background, and used to tame the power with the clutch) is the key.

Thanks for telling me I don't know how to ride ;-)

Now post a video of that same location (or even a different one) where roots, standing water, mud, and steep hills are involved.

 

[Oded]

Liked your response

This is the only video of my Redshift in slippery conditions-

 

[blbills]

^^^ Posted above is what we call "Hero Dirt" here in the states. That looks pretty prime.

These are the sort of conditions I am talking about but with more roots and gnarly uphills (not me riding). I want to see an e-bike (preferably someone who has done similar on an Alta chime in). This is where I've found electric to fall short.

 

[Oded]

Looks like torture. Fun, but torture

 

[fsfs]

Slippery, muddy, and inconsistent traction situations is where Alta shines the most. Altas have dominated ice races and muddy supermoto competitions. I climbed loose gravel hills that I was even afraid to look at, or attempt on my 2-stroke Husky with a Rekluse. I had a lot of fun in all muddy conditions where an ICE bike would be struggling to maintain traction and momentum. I have no experience riding on wet rocks, but riding dry loose rocks was pretty easy because the wheel does not spin up and the bike does not loose momentum when the traction is lost and then suddenly regained.

IMO, four fixed "maps" is not enough to cover motocross, off-road, etc. We identified this as a weakness which needs to be addressed.

The virtual flywheel in the Varg will be more advanced than what the Alta has.
The end user will have fine grained control over the flywheel parameters.
Different sections of the course will likely require different power delivery behavior; having 5 available "maps" should probably cover it.

 

[Matt]

It's hard to tell what is and isn't hill in this video but I do ride a lot of mud and roots and rocks in general and find the Alta to have the best tractor capabilities of any bike I have ridden. My bike has full race tech gold valve suspension and a tubeliss tire system also. @Philip also has a video some where of himself passing a bunch of gas bikes stuck on a muddy hill in a previous 24hr. I ran a bunch of hairscamble this past fall that had a lot of gnarly muddy uphills with a ton of roots and I had no issue with the Alta. The key mostly is to use map 1 for tractoring, at least that's been my experience. Sometimes I hold the rear brake a bit to get a little more pop for larger objects and also bump up the map.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=4163602233715717&id=100001979436944

 

[F451]

Same. Love my Alta in the PacNW muddy, rooty, gnar. Map 1, easy on the throttle, low tire pressure, tractors right up almost everything.

Also love on bigger climes, traction allowing, Map 3, nail it like a 250 2 st, and rail up hillsides. So versatile, so much fun.

 

[autohog]

I've gotta chime in here guys... I just want to lead by saying that the Alta was the most fun I've ever had on two wheels. PERIOD.

It shined everywhere BUT on those loose, slippery, gnarly, uphills. I remember being unable to conquer this particular hill with my buddies. I drained 2/3 of the battery hitting it time after time determined to make it to the top. Didn't happen. I borrowed one of my buddy's 300XC's and went right up it. No big deal at all.

This shocked me. And I still think about that experience even to this day. I've only come to partial conclusions as to why the Alta wasn't able to cut it:

1) The Alta was designed for MX and "hard" enduro was either just an afterthought or a lower priority. (I know that Ty was racing etc...)

2) Traction control. I remember hearing about some custom controller parameters that were loaded onto the bike that went to Erzberg but I don't think there was ever a mode provided to the general public that would prevent wheel-spin in these types of environments. Much more R&D was needed in that department.

3) My Alta was pre-AER fork and I never pulled the trigger on getting work done on the suspension. The second that rear wheel broke contact with the ground it is all over in those situations. I bet proper suspension would have gone a long ways.


I am super stoked about the VARG. I pre-ordered it the second I saw it. There has been a void in my life ever since I sold the Alta a few years back. Looks like Stark is going down a very similar development/marketing path that Alta did so that's great. I think we'll need to be a little patient out of the gate before its dialed in for the back woods...

Agreed, wheelspin every time the back wheel leaves the ground or gets light. Needs a clutch.

 

[autohog]

Slippery, muddy, and inconsistent traction situations is where Alta shines the most. Altas have dominated ice races and muddy supermoto competitions. I climbed loose gravel hills that I was even afraid to look at, or attempt on my 2-stroke Husky with a Rekluse. I had a lot of fun in all muddy conditions where an ICE bike would be struggling to maintain traction and momentum. I have no experience riding on wet rocks, but riding dry loose rocks was pretty easy because the wheel does not spin up and the bike does not loose momentum when the traction is lost and then suddenly regained.

The only place I have found to be an issue is when you are in a mud rut and your rear wheel stops against a root that is maybe a foot jump up. From stationary, it is tough to keep the wheel from spinning yet get enough to get over the root. An electric clutch would work wonders here. I still may play around designing a clutch for these bikes. The Alta will make you a smoother rider as your "throttle" hand becomes adept to the subtle needs.

If the Alta had a clutch it would probably be the best bike I have ever ridden.
I've said it before here, in order to control wheelspin regardless of ICE or electric, the power must be mitigated by a clutch. There is no traction control (nor would I want it). The rider should and must have final control of the power delivery to the ground for maximum traction as well as increasing RPM's by pulling a clutch and delivering the power exactly when you need it.
Stark supposedly extended run time, implemented my dream of an app for custom maps and sharing with your buds, and even gave it KYB's, super stoked! But really bummed that they do not see the need for a clutch.

 

[Number Six]

Based on most of what I'm seeing here & the premise of a lighter OA package, better suspension & more adjustable parameters - this new bike could be / should be brilliant for what I have in mind.
Sounds as if I'll need to somewhat re-learn throttle control for an e Bike though in current configuration of direct drive.

Wouldn't the logical thing on these bikes be to have a rear wheel sensor & user adjustable programmed traction control ?
The components already exist & similar systems are in use, plus there'd be no weight, cost or complexity penalty to speak of as compared to a conventional clutch assembly.
Such a system would drastically widen the range of operation, just imagine ; MX to hard enduro and all conditions within optimized by little more than a map change.

Stark Future .. are you listening ?
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