Throttle and traction control on the Stark

[Philip]

Riding my Stark and my Alta back-to-back again today. I think I figured it. What the Stark is missing is a good low-pass filter on its throttle input, which Alta has.

On the Alta I can ride carefree in Map 4 and have fun all day long even on old tires on a dry, hard, bumpy and dusty track. This is a very slippery track, and a good throttle control is a must.

On the Stark, the closest that I can get to this level of fun would be if I switch to the 35 hp mode in turns and to the 45 hp mode when coming out of turns. But it is so weird to have to switch all the time, and with no good tactile or audible confirmation I forget about it sometimes. Also, this takes away from my riding enjoyment.

The throttle on the Alta is not jerky at all, even on a bumpy track, and even in Map 4. On the Stark it is, to the point that I am slower in most turns on my Stark, unless I am in the 35 hp mode. This is not the way to do it. The throttle on the Alta is slightly more laggy, but it is still pretty instant in comparison to all the ICE bike throttles. Power-sliding and drifting the Alta is super easy and natural. This is what the Stark needs -- a slightly delayed, better filtered, and more smooth throttle.

I stopped being a clutch user ever since I graduated from mopeds. I use the clutch regularly on 2-strokes, but I do not like revving and dumping, I prefer the 250cc+ 2-stroke power.. On the 4-strokes, I barely use the clutch and prefer to use the throttle, shift, or carry the momentum instead. What I am saying is in that my throttle control skills are pretty good. Switching to the Alta went seamlessly well for me. But with the Stark I am struggling. Something has to improve with the Stark, and it isn't going to be me.

@fsfs

 

[DaveAusNor]

Would be good to see some level of adjustment available in the future. I see even on cheap kids electric bikes they have the ability to adjust not only top speed but acceleration and throttle response delay.
Being able to fine tune the throttle response and power curve would be amazing, so I hope this comes soon after the EX's are delivered.

 

[Oded]

The Suron Ultra Bee have 3 throttle sensitivity levels for each map. Rider can choose according to his liking. Very useful.

High end electric bikes usually differ from low end machines by how the throttle react in crawling speed. The lower end machines are jerky with a some on / off feeling, and hard to maintain creeping speed. Alta is excellent in that regard. My Zero FX was also very good.

 

[Osika]

I'm betting it will release soon!

 

[Philip]

The Suron Ultra Bee have 3 throttle sensitivity levels for each map. Rider can choose according to his liking. Very useful.

High end electric bikes usually differ from low end machines by how the throttle react in crawling speed. The lower end machines are jerky with a some on / off feeling, and hard to maintain creeping speed. Alta is excellent in that regard. My Zero FX was also very good.

Stark must be the lowest-end then. It's either a no-go, or it starts throwing rocks and digging trenches!

 

[OpaTsupa]

A sophisticated throttle control and power delivery is the feature I am hoping to see in the new EX model.
It is the thing that will likely sway my decision weather to get the bike.

The "80HP" sticker may have been enough to grab the attention of Motocrossers, but for the infinitely varied terrains of Enduro, and skillset of average rider, they will need to do more in this area.

 

[rayivers]

A sophisticated throttle control and power delivery is the feature I am hoping to see in the new EX model.
It is the thing that will likely sway my decision weather to get the bike.

E-mail and let them know (sales@starkfuture.com). It's the only way to be sure they get the message. Imo all of us should do this, whether or not we need this feature right now. It's firmware, it's doable, it was promised from day one - they need to prioritize it ahead of self-promotion and swag.

 

[fsfs]

Riding my Stark and my Alta back-to-back again today. I think I figured it. What the Stark is missing is a good low-pass filter on its throttle input, which Alta has.

On the Alta I can ride carefree in Map 4 and have fun all day long even on old tires on a dry, hard, bumpy and dusty track. This is a very slippery track, and a good throttle control is a must.

On the Stark, the closest that I can get to this level of fun would be if I switch to the 35 hp mode in turns and to the 45 hp mode when coming out of turns. But it is so weird to have to switch all the time, and with no good tactile or audible confirmation I forget about it sometimes. Also, this takes away from my riding enjoyment.

The throttle on the Alta is not jerky at all, even on a bumpy track, and even in Map 4. On the Stark it is, to the point that I am slower in most turns on my Stark, unless I am in the 35 hp mode. This is not the way to do it. The throttle on the Alta is slightly more laggy, but it is still pretty instant in comparison to all the ICE bike throttles. Power-sliding and drifting the Alta is super easy and natural. This is what the Stark needs -- a slightly delayed, better filtered, and more smooth throttle.

I stopped being a clutch user ever since I graduated from mopeds. I use the clutch regularly on 2-strokes, but I do not like revving and dumping, I prefer the 250cc+ 2-stroke power.. On the 4-strokes, I barely use the clutch and prefer to use the throttle, shift, or carry the momentum instead. What I am saying is in that my throttle control skills are pretty good. Switching to the Alta went seamlessly well for me. But with the Stark I am struggling. Something has to improve with the Stark, and it isn't going to be me.

@fsfs

We can try both a ramp rate and a filter. Although, flywheel achieves a similar effect even without a filter/ramp-rate on the throttle. As long as the filter is not too slow, it should not induce oscillations. For start I can try a filter only -- adjustable time constant with option to filter in both directions or just on opening throttle (closing either filtered or immediate). Thanks for the idea.

 

[F451]

Wow, I'm very surprised to read all this. I had assumed the Varg would have very smooth and predictable "low end" power delivery, even better then the Alta's or Surron's. And that it would have all the built-in power delivery adjustments.

Between this, the weight, issues owners are having with failing parts (even given Stark's usually replacing failed parts relatively quickly), and unpredictable software updates, I'm glad I held off on the purchase.

 

[Theo]

I've asked Gemini to explain what a low pass filter would do in this context it and, in its opinion, a low pass filter would basically make the throttle response less aggressive.

I guess that the main factor which can make the throttle response right is the reaction time of the rider.
Here is what happens to any of us during a corner exit:
1) I open the throttle trying to estimate how much is the right amount of throttle input considering my experience and the conditions in that situation,
2) I feel whether it's too much or too little,
3) I adjust the throttle input consequently,
4) back to point 2, than 3, then 2 and so forth.
The loop explained above is a closed loop, since the output depends, among the other things, on the measurement of the output itself.
If the throttle response is faster than my reaction time and the throttle input excessive, then when I realize it it's too late.
If the throttle response is too slow, then it becomes harder to control the motorcycle since I will have to think in advance and predict when the torque to the wheel will actually increase.
Probably the right compromise is a throttle response slightly slower than my reaction time, which maybe shouldn't mean a complete delay in the output change, maybe even a gradual increase or decrease to the set value would be acceptable.
The controller could also be set in a way that, if the angular speed by which I rotate the throttle is higher than a certain value, that would be considered as a request for sudden power, maybe to wheelie or to spin out intentionally and then the output can be more sudden.

 

[Philip]

E-mail and let them know (sales@starkfuture.com). It's the only way to be sure they get the message. Imo all of us should do this, whether or not we need this feature right now. It's firmware, it's doable, it was promised from day one - they need to prioritize it ahead of self-promotion and swag.

And if you already own a Stark and are noticing the same throttle control and traction issues, you should email support@starkfuture.com and open a trouble ticket. Riding the Stark on my dusty and slippery local track is a trouble.

 

[Jake]

Wow, I'm very surprised to read all this. I had assumed the Varg would have very smooth and predictable "low end" power delivery, even better then the Alta's or Surron's. And that it would have all the built-in power delivery adjustments.

Between this, the weight, issues owners are having with failing parts (even given Stark's usually replacing failed parts relatively quickly), and unpredictable software updates, I'm glad I held off on the purchase.

Not sure what others are experiencing, but my Stark has very smooth throttle delivery, just as good or better than the Alta's I've ridden

 

[Osika]

Agree very smooth..Varg. 55hp easy to control. Only riding fast though so not sure for enduro technical.

 

[fsfs]

Not sure what others are experiencing, but my Stark has very smooth throttle delivery, just as good or better than the Alta's I've ridden

How the throttle works is a highly subjective thing. Also, things such as flywheel for sure have an effect on throttle response even though not directly part of the throttle response. So why do some people prefer the way the Alta responds? Not sure... could be flywheel, could be the throttle algorithm. There is a way to perhaps see if it is the throttle or flywheel. Put each bike on the stand. Hold the front end down and open the throttle... see how long it takes for the wheel to spin up to full RPM. If the Alta takes considerably longer in a given map, then the virtual flywheel is coming into play. If that map seems "smoother" when riding the Alta, likely that it is the flywheel instead of the throttle algorithm itself. This is just a guess and I could be wrong. I think both filter and flywheel need to be tested on the Varg to come to a conclusion. And it may be different for each rider.

 

[Philip]

Now we are talking Traction Control.

As far as I know, the Alta has a simple and effective RPM acceleration limit in each map.

Yes, a heavier flywnheel would definitely help the Stark. @DonCox and I were at the Arenacross in Prescott, AZ a couple of weeks ago, and we watched how the Stark pro riders (Bogle, Hicks, etc) were losing about a half a second per lap to gas bikes in just one long flat sweeper. While the gas bikes (Friese on a Honda) were spectacular in that corner with large lean angles and barely any tire spin, the Starks were more upright, spinning the rear tires, and simply polishing the clay. Too much wheelspin, unable to develop the maximum lateral acceleration, and unable to put down the power to the ground in a turn. Despite the available 80 hp, they struggled to clear a long quad jump. They pitched and squatted in the whoops. In the much anticipated "clash for cash" race with three gas bikes and three electric bikes, just like in prior weekends, they finished 4th, 5th, and 6th, about a half-a lap behind the ICE bikes. I do not know. I have a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is the Stark Future corporate strategy to show that electric bikes are not a threat in competition.

 

[Osika]

Just got email from Stark that throttle adjustment and similar things are in development and won't be available anytime soon.

 

[OpaTsupa]

Just got email from Stark that throttle adjustment and similar things are in development and won't be available anytime soon.

Assuming that the MX and EX bikes are largely developed (i.e. the same) what else than the throttle/traction is taking up Stark's development?
[I'm trying unsuccessfully not to bring up the dildo technology]

Principle of deliberate trickle-development by some other Euro off-road factories soured me towards them.
For example, it took Beta about five generations to deliver a larger kickstand base.

 

[Johnny Depp]

Has anyone tried much taller gearing to chill the throttle control? With this massive torque it seems like it might be a good direction anyway?
How about adapting a throttle from another make, Sur Ron or whatever? Something with a filter built in, or adjustability?

 

[AL_V]

Has anyone tried much taller gearing to chill the throttle control? With this massive torque it seems like it might be a good direction anyway?
How about adapting a throttle from another make, Sur Ron or whatever? Something with a filter built in, or adjustability?

Not necessary, the throttle rolls on very smoothly!
Most of us want more throttle response at lower horsepower.

 

[Beagle]

I have a conspiracy theory. Maybe it is the Stark Future corporate strategy to show that electric bikes are not a threat in competition.

They've obviously forgotten to tell that to Zaragoza or Hicks when they've been racing AX UK (Zaragoza won first round, Hicks 2nd in round 6). Must be an AMA thing

Also love that Hicks is racing both his Yam and Stark in AMA AX and his laptimes on the 2 bikes are very very close (if maybe not "made" the same way).