Tunability - Subscription or Deception

[BeardyTroll]

Am I the only one that got surprised by the subscription requirement to be able to access the tunability features originally posted in the launch video?

Back when I placed my deposit there was no mention of it that I could find on the marketing pages and only a casual reference to subscription in the legalese of the T's and C's. Which seemed to reference creating an account on the web platform to setup and purchase.

Now the website states "All the above features will be available through our premium subscription plan, and certain features such as 24/7 internet connectivity, number of ride modes, adjustability and navigation are limited if you choose the free plan. All plans will automatically receive the latest over-air software updates and new customers are offered a one-month free trial of the premium plan. You will be able to select or update your plan in the Stark VARG app.

"

Even the video link does not include any reference to monthly payment or subscription, only optional install of SIM.

At this point I have been trying to get Stark to clarify what they are actually offering for the "Free Plan" or what "Limited" means (its difficult to consider a $14k machine as free) but so far they have only responded with, "We have many exciting features for the VARG in development and will be released over time. Additionally, a subscription plan will be available. Stay updated by following our media channels and subscribing to our newsletter for the latest information on these topics."

As the bike sits I am not impressed with the adjustability or controls. Just as a baseline, having the regen % tied to the selected horsepower adjustment makes the regen fairly useless on anything other than 80hp setting. Then without the ability to adjust "flywheel" or "power curve" the 80hp setting is way too aggressive for most off-road situations, and still pretty spicy on the edge of a sumo tire.

So basically this is going to force a massive performance compromise or you get to pay up to Uncle Tony(Stark) every single month. Oh and no, we don't get to know what that will cost either.

Am I off base on this? Is there other information I'm missing? Are there more adjustments than HP and % that I don't know about? Did I just do a poor job of watching every video and reading every newsletter and somehow miss this?

Looking for a sanity check here. But felling pretty dupped and not stoked about this. How is this not being discussed with all the under-the-influencer videos out there?

 

[Philip]

This verbiage on the Stark Future website and this YouTube video are almost 2 years old. Folks have discussed it before.

SV software license, potential subscriptions, smart bike ramifications etc

If one reads the fine print, when you buy a Stark, you purchase a motorcycle and a software license. It's stated that the license isn't transferable. What happens when you try to sell your SV to someone else? The 60 vs 80hp option is already on the table as far as buying different software...

electricdirtriders.com

None of this has been implemented yet. Do you have any latest information?

 

[BeardyTroll]

This verbiage on the Stark Future website and this YouTube video are almost 2 years old. Folks have discussed it before.

SV software license, potential subscriptions, smart bike ramifications etc

If one reads the fine print, when you buy a Stark, you purchase a motorcycle and a software license. It's stated that the license isn't transferable. What happens when you try to sell your SV to someone else? The 60 vs 80hp option is already on the table as far as buying different software...

electricdirtriders.com

None of this has been implemented yet. Do you have any latest information?

Many thanks for pointing to the existing thread, unfortunately, I have no new information, just a ton of questions. Which now 2 years on from that thread is a little surprising, and somewhat concerning.

And again I still cannot find any of this information other than buried deep in a forum. Only vague references to any mentions from Stark...Can anyone point me to where Stark is actually "mentioning" this in early release videos, I have not been able to find anything other than the Ts and Cs that use the word subscription. I'm really trying to determine how I would have known about this before plopping down the cash...even the local dealer had no clue any of this is on the table, or that functionality would be on a pay to play basis.

 

[Philip]

I think the video that you linked is the one that prompted all the heated discussions on this subject. There hasn't been any news since, perhaps Stark Future realized that they need to improve the base product before they can start charging for the tasty extras.

And those extras certainly can't be the kind that would make the rideability better or worse (safer or unsafer). I wouldn't worry about licensing if you are not a pro rider.

 

[F451]

I'm with Beardy on this one, the Vargs roll out has been a bit messy, the communications have been lacking. I don't have it all documented, but I put in my deposit within the first 3 weeks, my understanding then if memory serves, was 5 ride modes included with the bike. I don't recall those ride modes being fully customizable, but for some reason I thought regen would be configurable within each mode. A subscription service was going to be available for up to 100 different fully customizable ride modes, availability and price TBD at a later date.

I wasn't too thrilled with this offering of a subscription for the fully customizable ride modes as I initially thought it was going to be offered without additional cost. I think I got this impression from the early news about the bike, but by the time I ordered, I was aware the "100" customizable modes would be an additional monthly subscription.

Then when the bikes weight increased substantially, and bikes started being delivered out of order (people jumping the line - for whatever reason), and the uncertainty about actual delivery of the bike, I decided not to follow through with the purchase.

Now seeing all kinds of issues with the bikes, I'm glad I decided to not make the purchase. And yes I realize plenty of people's bikes are working fine with no issues and people love them and I'm psyched for those folks!

I'm still hoping there will be some battery technology break through soon (like right now!) that will bring the weight down, range up, price down, but I'm not seeing anything on the near horizon. So my cash is going elsewhere at the moment. I'm thinking 5 years at least before anything break through hits the market, by then I don't think I'll be riding dirt bike anymore (damn it, Lol). We will see.

 

[BeardyTroll]

I think the video that you linked is the one that prompted all the heated discussions on this subject. There hasn't been any news since, perhaps Start Future realized that they need to improve the base product before they can start charging for the tasty extras.

And those extras certainly can't be the kind that would make the rideability better or worse (safer or unsafer). I wouldn't worry about licensing if you are not a pro rider.

I really appreciate your comments on the subject, and I don't want to keep beating the dead horse, but I'm still confused on how the concept of monthly fees was covered in that video. The only point where I think one could have reasonably inferred monthly costs based on what they were talking about is with the "optional addition of a SIM" comment at the end. When I watch that video I see a phone being used as a convenient interface device, no mention of limitations without paying a subscription.

At this point I've calmed down a bit on the whole subscription thing, but still really wanting to understand how I missed this entirely. Sure I wasn't pouring over the forums before I purchased, but I was assuming all relevant purchasing information would be coming through official channels. Yes, perhaps I should have gone back to re-read every part of their website, but I foolishly expected any news or significant changes to come through a newsletter or announcement.

All I'm looking for now is to figure out where/when/how in the official communications from Stark the concept of "Subscription" was introduced in context of tunability, and how I completely overlooked it. I felt I made a reasonable effort to be an informed consumer, and didn't make the discovery until "Beta race mode" trial showed up on the app. Then went searching for answers which lead me here. The existing thread shows that plenty of folks had caught on to this years ago, but how?

Sure I don't like that the bike weight went up, or that they sent a newsletter clearly stating that existing orders would not be impacted by price increase only to get a $1K surprise increase when I was completing the sale. However, in any development and in consideration of the global supply chain challenges of the last many years, things change, I get it, and if it had been communicated better it would have been a breeze to accept that. I can even accept the dealers and influencers getting to jump the line, the marketing machine must lead the charge over the average joes. But not clearly explaining in lay terms that there will be monthly charges for the features being shown doesn't sit well with me.

and @F451 - Having ridden it, I would say that as soon as they clarify what the actual functionality of the free version is, you should seriously consider it. As frustrating as the communication has been, the hardware is fantastic, and its a worthy machine. At least hop on one for a demo, not sure you need to wait 5 years...it might realistically extend the time in the saddle due to being so much easier to keep pace without all the rotating assemblies. But thanks for the back up on the surprises along the way, they have not been fun.

 

[Chaconne]

I'm with Beardy on this one, the Vargs roll out has been a bit messy, the communications have been lacking. I don't have it all documented, but I put in my deposit within the first 3 weeks, my understanding then if memory serves, was 5 ride modes included with the bike. I don't recall those ride modes being fully customizable, but for some reason I thought regen would be configurable within each mode. A subscription service was going to be available for up to 100 different fully customizable ride modes, availability and price TBD at a later date.

I wasn't too thrilled with this offering of a subscription for the fully customizable ride modes as I initially thought it was going to be offered without additional cost. I think I got this impression from the early news about the bike, but by the time I ordered, I was aware the "100" customizable modes would be an additional monthly subscription.

Then when the bikes weight increased substantially, and bikes started being delivered out of order (people jumping the line - for whatever reason), and the uncertainty about actual delivery of the bike, I decided not to follow through with the purchase.

Now seeing all kinds of issues with the bikes, I'm glad I decided to not make the purchase. And yes I realize plenty of people's bikes are working fine with no issues and people love them and I'm psyched for those folks!

I'm still hoping there will be some battery technology break through soon (like right now!) that will bring the weight down, range up, price down, but I'm not seeing anything on the near horizon. So my cash is going elsewhere at the moment. I'm thinking 5 years at least before anything break through hits the market, by then I don't think I'll be riding dirt bike anymore (damn it, Lol). We will see.

I bought my Stark through a legit dealer I am not doing mailorder for a purchase over 10k for a physical product from an overseas company with little US presence --I am old school like that. I bought a KTM from the same dealer in 2020 and both purchases were equivalent and smooth as silk. Can't say enough about having a great dealer whose sole focus is dirtbikes.

And the price I paid for the Stark 80hp was around 13k out the door which would be close to most of the ICE KTMs I would be interested in today. And compared to my 2020 KTM --which is an excellent bike-- the Stark is way better. And the new tech on the KTM at the time wasn't exactly bullet proof either(TPI) and after I got it I realized that extra cost/care/maintenance would be needed to maintain the fueling/oiling system and other new tech on the bike.

My point is I don't think the issues with the Stark are any worse than any other European bike --and internet forums though at times helpful can often give a distorted picture. Yes there are the weird attempts at Euro clever (like the plastic tubes), yes there is poor Euro machining on some parts (like the oil plug and kickstand) but this tends to be par for the course for anyone who has owned a KTM (and its colors), Beta, or any other Euro made something.. It has been this way since I owned Bultacos and Maicos in the day. But overall this bike is the best bike I have owned hands down ever and I am riding it today not some unknown time in the future.

I guess most of all I didn't want to wait 5 years for the Japanese or Chinese to build a better mousetrap. For a trail/enduro rider like me this bike does it all and more. BTW KTM "improved" the TPI bikes by introducing TBI and this fixed the problems with oil injection by slamming the piston into the head... (which I guess is about the same as a defective battery or some other major problem) And I know 3 guys who got on Betas only to get off after a year of problems. The Stark so far has been pretty good by comparison to comparable manufacturers IMHO and the best thing is it is an absolute joy to ride.

 

[F451]

and @F451 - Having ridden it, I would say that as soon as they clarify what the actual functionality of the free version is, you should seriously consider it. As frustrating as the communication has been, the hardware is fantastic, and its a worthy machine. At least hop on one for a demo, not sure you need to wait 5 years...it might realistically extend the time in the saddle due to being so much easier to keep pace without all the rotating assemblies. But thanks for the back up on the surprises along the way, they have not been fun.

Thanks, but besides all the things I mentioned above, its really about the weight for me. I loved my Alta MXR, except for the weight of it. I'm sure I would love a Varg, except for the weight of it. I have a buddy that just got a Varg and I'm sure I'll get a spin on it one of these days (dealing with some health issues at the moment, so no riding for me for a while) and I will see how it goes.

Once I'm back to riding, perhaps my very nicely setup Husky FE350 will annoy me enough to get me to consider that Varg again, Lol.

I will say though, if I fit on the Sur Ron Ultra Bee (I'm way to tall for it), I would have kept that bike and been very happy with it (and yes I know its no Varg). But it's light weight, good power, easy, simple power, throttle, regen adjustability, makes it a super fun single track ripper.

 

[jswr450]

I don't feel deceived. My bike seems very tunable. I went for a three hour ride today (2 hours and fifty minutes of actual riding), mix of fire roads and single track. Started with 90%, ended with 34%, went 32 miles. So far, I'm loving the bike. I'm not going to miss cleaning air filters, valve checks, top end jobs, etc. I ordered my bike directly from Stark, came in a little over a week. Not having to go through a dealer was a plus for me. I don't enjoy the dealer "experience".

 

[BeardyTroll]

I don't feel deceived. My bike seems very tunable. I went for a three hour ride today (2 hours and fifty minutes of actual riding), mix of fire roads and single track. Started with 90%, ended with 34%, went 32 miles. So far, I'm loving the bike. I'm not going to miss cleaning air filters, valve checks, top end jobs, etc. I ordered my bike directly from Stark, came in a little over a week. Not having to go through a dealer was a plus for me. I don't enjoy the dealer "experience".

I was pretty ok with the range also, my outing was ~44miles of super flowy single track with minimal elevation, and modest tech sections. Started 100% ended 16%, but the riders battery was fully 0%. That part is great, but also I can tell there is a lot more regen available, and more range is more range, and the more I ride the fitter I'll be, before long I'm going to want more. Running it on sumo tires on the street it became obvious that regen is lacking in lower pwr settings. So a larger percentage of the energy gets lost to brakes, bearings, tire, chain, wind drag when off throttle, and that's a waste.

Do you have additional tuning parameters? I'm not sure I would describe a two variable system as "very" tunable. Can you describe your tune setup?

Again my big beef isn't how the bikes tunability compares to a gasser or others, but rather that it falls short of what was marketed, and I feel there was a shift from "this is what it does" to "someday this is what it will do if you pay monthly". Even as they sit today, it is an impressive machine, I just like to have better clarity on larger purchases, and don't like surprises after cash has been exchanged. So far the only place I've seen subscriptions discussed is in forums, and one vague paragraph burred in their site, would really like to know where the official manufacture's comments were originally given on the subject...so far no one can point to that, or I'm just missing it in those vids, anyone have a link and time stamp?

 

[jswr450]

I was pretty ok with the range also, my outing was ~44miles of super flowy single track with minimal elevation, and modest tech sections. Started 100% ended 16%, but the riders battery was fully 0%. That part is great, but also I can tell there is a lot more regen available, and more range is more range, and the more I ride the fitter I'll be, before long I'm going to want more. Running it on sumo tires on the street it became obvious that regen is lacking in lower pwr settings. So a larger percentage of the energy gets lost to brakes, bearings, tire, chain, wind drag when off throttle, and that's a waste.

Do you have additional tuning parameters? I'm not sure I would describe a two variable system as "very" tunable. Can you describe your tune setup?

Again my big beef isn't how the bikes tunability compares to a gasser or others, but rather that it falls short of what was marketed, and I feel there was a shift from "this is what it does" to "someday this is what it will do if you pay monthly". Even as they sit today, it is an impressive machine, I just like to have better clarity on larger purchases, and don't like surprises after cash has been exchanged. So far the only place I've seen subscriptions discussed is in forums, and one vague paragraph burred in their site, would really like to know where the official manufacture's comments were originally given on the subject...so far no one can point to that, or I'm just missing it in those vids, anyone have a link and time stamp?

I'm able to tune the horsepower and the regen. It seems like they might have some tricks in the works, but for now, the bike seems pretty awesome. So far the range has been more than enough, but I'm not riding sand or deep loam, and I'm not an AMA pro. The main thing I want from it is long term reliability with low maintenance. No vibration, less noise, no shifting and tons of power. Seems like a win for what I need.

 

[wfopete]

I believe there is a technology title wave headed for Stark and the competition will be riding it and offering it as standard equipment.

You say what competition? Give it two years...or less.

 

[rayivers]

would really like to know where the official manufacture's comments were originally given on the subject...so far no one can point to that, or I'm just missing it in those vids, anyone have a link and time stamp?

Around the time the Stark site first appeared, I remember reading the features paragraphs and thinking, "I really should save this in case it disappears", but of course never did. I recall the features being separated into an upper-paragraph 'standard' group (mostly bike adjustability / ride modes / custom maps etc.), and below that the 'premium' subscription features (GPS/navigation, Internet, 100 ride modes instead of 5, etc.) followed by "these features will be available throught our premium subscription plan..." I was specifically looking for red flags regarding pay-extra features, and didn't see any back then as the standard and premium features were presented separately. Again, all from memory.

The features description currently on the Stark site (6/25/24) had two words that instantly got my attention, so much so that I can't imagine having missed them before:

"All the above features will be available through our premium subscription plan, and certain features such as 24/7 internet connectivity, number of ride modes, adjustability and navigation are limited if you choose the free plan."

It seems to me the older version indicated getting all features free except the premium ones specifically noted, while the current version is more like "if you pay you'll get everything, if you don't you won't". Perhaps this seems a subtle difference, but not to me. My 2014 Zero has 3 modes, one of them w/dual-adjustable regen (coasting and braking) plus power level. My Alta has 4 modes & no adjustment at all. I ordered my Stark mainly because it was supposed to have significantly more adjustability than either.

 

[FreedomFlyer]

When I had a Stark Future tech on a video call the other day he said tunability will be released in the next couple of updates and made no mention of a subscription requirement. He just said it is coming very soon.