Will the Alta battery prove itself like the Tesla?

[snydes]

Interesting video on the Tesla battery and owner data. I wonder if the Alta battery will do as well over time?

 

[bluefxstc]

Highly probably, but we, or at least I, tend to discharge my bike to a lower charge level than I do my electric car so that may hurt the battery life in my Alta. I also notice the shelf life comment in there about lithium batteries losing about 0.35% of capacity a year when sitting on the shelf. No problem buying spare batteries to have them if you want to and feel you need them.

 

[TCMB371]

My typical usage is from a full charge down to about 30-60% SOC, and then back to full (or close to it) before my next moto.

 

[strider]

Things that damage Li-Ion batteries:
Heat (that's why consumer electronic batteries die so quickly) Once the battery hits 40C it starts degrading. Good thermal control is critical to long life.
Time spent at 100% charge or 0% charge (accelerates calendar degradation - best to store at 50%). It is absolutely no problem to charge to 100% or run down to 0% as long as you minimize the time spent at either extreme (with time spent at 0% being worse than 100%).

Our 2012 Tesla Model S with 75k miles is down ~10% in range. Our 2010 Tesla Roadster with 64k miles is down ~16% in range. The Roadster is using older tech batteries than the S and its thermal control is not as good (struggles to keep the battery below 40C in the summer).

I call super BS on the math in the video as batteries do not degrade in a linear fashion. Further, a battery pack is only as strong as its weakest cell. If a few cells across the battery pack degrade more quickly then the capacity of the entire pack must be reduced. Once the weak cell hits the low voltage cut-off the BMS (Battery Mgmt System) shuts off the vehicle even if the other cells have capacity as overdischarging will cause even degradation. Same thing happens during charging. The weak cell will fill up more quickly and the BMS must halt charging to avoid overcharging even if the other cells still have capacity to hold more energy.

The good news is that the 18650 cells we are using have been produced for a long time. Manufacturing tolerances are very good so cells tend to be pretty even capacity-wise.

 

[TonyWilliams]

All cells lose capacity over time. All we can do is mitigate the damage. The number one and two criteria for damage to the cells is high temperature and extremely low or extremely high state of charge.

1) Do not store the motorcycle in a trailer or a tin shed, or anything that will bake the battery. Keep the battery as cool as possible even going as far as removing the battery and putting it in your air-conditioned house, if that is required. Yes, you can put the battery directly in any freezer or refrigerator for storage. Do not exceed -25C temperature!

*Longest life is a cold battery
*Highest performance is a hot battery

2) Leave the battery state of charge at about 30% when the motorcycle as being stored. It is probably wise to periodically check the state of charge every month or so while in storage.

Just before you’re out on the trails or at the track, then charge the bike to 100% and warm that battery up! And don’t forget to have fun and stop worrying about the battery.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Things that damage Li-Ion batteries:
Heat (that's why consumer electronic batteries die so quickly) Once the battery hits 40C it starts degrading. Good thermal control is critical to long life.
Time spent at 100% charge or 0% charge (accelerates calendar degradation - best to store at 50%). It is absolutely no problem to charge to 100% or run down to 0% as long as you minimize the time spent at either extreme (with time spent at 0% being worse than 100%).

Our 2012 Tesla Model S with 75k miles is down ~10% in range. Our 2010 Tesla Roadster with 64k miles is down ~16% in range. The Roadster is using older tech batteries than the S and its thermal control is not as good (struggles to keep the battery below 40C in the summer).

I call super BS on the math in the video as batteries do not degrade in a linear fashion. Further, a battery pack is only as strong as its weakest cell. If a few cells across the battery pack degrade more quickly then the capacity of the entire pack must be reduced. Once the weak cell hits the low voltage cut-off the BMS (Battery Mgmt System) shuts off the vehicle even if the other cells have capacity as overdischarging will cause even degradation. Same thing happens during charging. The weak cell will fill up more quickly and the BMS must halt charging to avoid overcharging even if the other cells still have capacity to hold more energy.

The good news is that the 18650 cells we are using have been produced for a long time. Manufacturing tolerances are very good so cells tend to be pretty even capacity-wise.

I also have a Tesla Model S with over 100,000 miles, as well as Model 3 with over 25,000 miles. In addition, I have several other Tesla powered vehicles like the Toyota RAV4 Electric Vehicle and Mercedes B class ED (b250e).

Modern 18650 cells used by Alta are very good. Actually, the Panasonic 18650 cells are very, very close to exactly what is in the Tesla Model S and X in the post 2015 cars. Of course, the Model 3 uses 2170 cells, also produced by Panasonic at the Tesla Gigafactory near Reno, Nevada (I got to tour that factory during their grand opening).

Degradation is just not a big deal, if the cells are treated well!

One significant caveat is that Tesla uses a robust cooling system in all their vehicles, while Alta cells have virtually no direct cooling method whatsoever (unless you include passive cooling through the aluminum heatsink that is the battery case and frame of the bike). The cells in our Alta motorcycles are subject to the whims of ambient heat and solar radiation, as well as the additional heat generated by use and charging.

 

[Philip]

I have moved the charging discussion into a new thread here:

Creative methods of charging the bike to say 50% after a ride