The "lock bike" feature isn't reliable

So with the latest firmware update the lock-feature was supposed to be fixed - that worked until the latest app update Not only did the last app update on my EX happened automatically mid-ride (!!!) which IMO is a big no-go by itself, the lock function is broken again on my bike. If I lock the bike now (which works) any attempt to get into the home-screen afterwards, to unlock the bike for example, results into the phone shutting down. I have to take it out of the cradle then, use the on/off button to manually switch it on and start the Varg app. By then the lock feature will most of the time have reset itself which makes it useless. Obviously it could be worse with the bike automatically locking itself, but in general this just amplifies how sketchy the use of an Android phone/app is for that application. Just imagine the phone automatically updates itself somewhere out in the woods and locks you out because something went wrong or a new bug being introduced! I really do like the bike so far, but this Android app sh**t starts being more than a nuisance ...

Michael

I have the same problem. The only way I can reliably lock the bike is to lock it while the bike is powered on and in neutral. and then turn the bike off and take away the phone. The app crashes a lot, and when it boots back up it will unlock the bike if you have the phone unlocked, regardless of you selecting "unlock my bike"

drehwurm68 said:

So with the latest firmware update the lock-feature was supposed to be fixed - that worked until the latest app update Not only did the last app update on my EX happened automatically mid-ride (!!!) which IMO is a big no-go by itself, the lock function is broken again on my bike. If I lock the bike now (which works) any attempt to get into the home-screen afterwards, to unlock the bike for example, results into the phone shutting down. I have to take it out of the cradle then, use the on/off button to manually switch it on and start the Varg app. By then the lock feature will most of the time have reset itself which makes it useless. Obviously it could be worse with the bike automatically locking itself, but in general this just amplifies how sketchy the use of an Android phone/app is for that application. Just imagine the phone automatically updates itself somewhere out in the woods and locks you out because something went wrong or a new bug being introduced! I really do like the bike so far, but this Android app sh**t starts being more than a nuisance ...

Michael

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This is what happens when you have folks in a motorcycle house try to be software/firmware engineers because some bean counter convinced them that controlling the platform was the key to ongoing revenue. Stark is far from the only company doing this, not that it makes it right --just saying.

No Android phone that I have used "updates itself" without asking the user. The update was caused by poor programming on the part of the app designer there should be an inUseApi() and no mainteinance process should take place when true. Even a dumbass should be able to read that off the powerswitch states.

And for god's sake no app should be released without proper QA and regression. This is not dating app software, somebody could get hurt or killed if something goes wrong when the machine is in flight.

Android phones are no more sketchy than any other application on a computer, they are typically Arm cores running Linux (that is what Android is) a well regarded reliable system, but shitty programming at the app level or possibly at the phone manufacturer level can occur, but that is not the fault of the hardware or operating system.

Chaconne said:

Android phones are no more sketchy than any other application on a computer,

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IMO the issue here is that Android is what it is - an open platform, not a Varg dedicated one. With Android you'll always have the option of infinite settings and possibly other apps running and you can never test it all. This was a poor idea from the beginning on ...

Michael

drehwurm68 said:

IMO the issue here is that Android is what it is - an open platform, not a Varg dedicated one. With Android you'll always have the option of infinite settings and possibly other apps running and you can never test it all. This was a poor idea from the beginning on ...

Michael

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A Varg dedicated platform might be worse. That would mean it would be totally proprietary and things would probably never get better or improve and Stark would have to do all the development and train developers on their platform. Either that or farm it out. I spent the first 15 years of my career working on dedicated platforms and it is not as viable as it might seem. I have seen this fail more times than I could count.

Even large companies have trouble doing proprietary and have to farm the development out to the least expensive least reliable software houses. With the current Stark deliverables, users at least have the choice with the Android phone if you don't want anything running remove most of the other apps and most of the settings can be turned off. The user gets to choose that at least, rather than a Varg Central Scrutinizer who tells you what you get.

Either way you won't fix bad programming making the interface dedicated and proprietary --and often proprietary makes things worse in my experience at least.

Chaconne said:

A Varg dedicated platform might be worse. That would mean it would be totally proprietary and things would probably never get better or improve and Stark would have to do all the development and train developers on their platform. Either that or farm it out. I spent the first 15 years of my career working on dedicated platforms and it is not as viable as it might seem. I have seen this fail more times than I could count.

Even large companies have trouble doing proprietary and have to farm the development out to the least expensive least reliable software houses. With the current Stark deliverables, users at least have the choice with the Android phone if you don't want anything running remove most of the other apps and most of the settings can be turned off. The user gets to choose that at least, rather than a Varg Central Scrutinizer who tells you what you get.

Either way you won't fix bad programming making the interface dedicated and proprietary --and often proprietary makes things worse in my experience at least.

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You make a lot of good points that I hadn't thought of, but the dedicated display on a Sur-Ron Ultra Bee is a lot more reliable than the the Varg wireless BT phone to bike connection. (And also more robust with more features).
Admittedly, the BT connection has gotten a lot better than it was early last year, and Sur-Ron obviously has a good programming team.
The phone app isn't the only programming that the Stark team is doing, but perhaps their lack of programming prowess explains why there seems to be too many batteries, power trains, and VCUs going bad. Of the 5 Varg MX owners that I personally know (including myself), 4 have either had their battery or power train replaced, 1 of them had both.
Thank Odin for the warranty!

Chaconne said:

A Varg dedicated platform might be worse.

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I see your points and issues big car manufacturers like VW had/have with their SW come to mind. On the other hand this is a dirt bike, shouldn't be that complicated, or? Now we have a "simple" electric engine instead of the EFI crap and what do they do - they screw up the SW No, I won't start the "give me back the carb 2-stroke engine" mantra as I really do like the new EFI and electric dirt bikes, but these issues on the Varg do bother me more than I was anticipating ...

Michael

drehwurm68 said:

I see your points and issues big car manufacturers like VW had/have with their SW come to mind. On the other hand this is a dirt bike, shouldn't be that complicated, or? Now we have a "simple" electric engine instead of the EFI crap and what do they do - they screw up the SW No, I won't start the "give me back the carb 2-stroke engine" mantra as I really do like the new EFI and electric dirt bikes, but these issues on the Varg do bother me more than I was anticipating ...

Michael

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Agreed. SW is almost always the problem and AI hacks won't make it better and it may make it worse. I have already seen examples where know-nothings rush a fix in that AI generated, check it in since the snake oilers told them it is flawless cuz it is AI (which is really software). Only to create a bug that a real software engineer had to debug and fix in code that "someone else" i.e. Botty had written.

BTW I own a KTM TPI bike and I have had no problems but the maintenance routine I have used to fight off potential failure and engine grenades has been extraordinary. It was one of the reasons I started considering Alta and the ended up getting a Stark. I love ICE bikes don't get me wrong, but I think ICE tech has far outlived its life and all the hacks we have to keep it going won't overcome the limits of the tech.

Chaconne said:

BTW I own a KTM TPI bike and I have had no problems but the maintenance routine I have used to fight off potential failure and engine grenades has been extraordinary. It was one of the reasons I started considering Alta and the ended up getting a Stark. I love ICE bikes don't get me wrong, but I think ICE tech has far outlived its life and all the hacks we have to keep it going won't overcome the limits of the tech.

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I followed the similar path.
A year ago I started thinking about a new 4T bike, but the limitations and potential headaches with the EFI made it unpalatable. Dealer was even charging 100$ just to flash the only usable map while the bike is still in the box.
They can keep their proprietary SW and unattainable readers and passwords.

I don't think it was a mistake by Stark to use the Android platform.
It's just a shame that the app and SW development is still lagging far behind the bike's potential.
Ironic, since they are supposed to be IT guys and not mechanical engineers.

If it's any consolation, all the rivet-less titanium welding, swiveling turbines etc. on a F35 is a fraction of complexity and effort that SW demands.

has anyone had this...

i locked the bike ant took the phone with me.
came back ... troubles with unlocking ...
then it showed "UNLOCKED"
bike was activated... but did not move.

pulled the throttle up and down
and after 2 seconds, in an nice up position, it kicked suddenly in and jumped
with 80hp forward like a rocket. puh...
i managed to stay on the bike - but that was weird.

i contacted stark and they replied.
after the next update i'll test it again on slippery ground.

Bernardo