2004 KX250F Electric conversion build. My first e-bike ever!

[MotoxXxMan]

New to the site, found it by reading the comments on Don Cox's youtube videos.
I raced motocross for several years in my teens and 20's, and have always had at least one street or dirt motorcycle my whole life since I was around 5. Well it's been a few years since I've been on two wheels, and it's time. I picked up this 2004 KX250F a couple weeks ago for $500 without a motor. I tore it down and closely inspected everything, and painted the frame while I was at it (knowing I'll be re-painting it later), making sure all was well. Needs new linkage bearings, new fork seals/bushings/oil, and chain slider, rollers, and guide pad. While apart, I cleaned everything, sharpened the pegs, fixed a few stripped threads, replaced several nuts/bolts, tightened the seat cover (it had wrinkles), greased steering and swingarm bearings, flushed and bled the brakes, straightened the rotors, torqued everything to spec, and made a list of misc small parts needed to make it complete and like new. Next steps will be ordering all the electronics, then while waiting for the shipments I'll buy all the other little misc stuff I need to restore the bike to like new. For a little under $1000 total including buying it, not including any electronics, I'll have this roller fully restored/rebuilt.

I will be going a bit bigger than the usual you see here, while still trying to keep weight down. So far, the plan is to use the following:
-QS 165 60H v3 (2.37 reduction gears, 520 sprocket 14 or 15 tooth)
-Fardriver ND841200 controller, with added heatsink
-building my own battery, size tbd, but so far I'm thinking 22s, and 10p-12p. Using Molicel p50b cells, ANT BMS 17s-24s 340a continuous 850a peak, QS10 connector(s), and WellGo 0.5mm copper busbars.
Will be setting it around 350amps continuous, 450-500amps peak discharge. Largely depends on what test rides reveal for my satisfaction with power, and motor/controller/battery temps. If I don't get the power I want, I'll just rebuild the battery a little bigger and turn the juice up, and possibly add a water cooling plate to the controller. May even speak with QS/Sia about a water cooled version of the motor.

I have no idea what to get for a charger, or where. I could use some help with this. I'd like something in the 10a-20a range, basically whatever the highest current I can get for a standard 110v US wall outlet. I'd like to keep cost down on the charger, so I'm ok wil it being dedicated to a specific voltage. But if price is right, I'd really like something that can do 22s/23s/24s.

The top rear motor mount and bar on the frame will be getting cut out. The bottom front motor mount tabs will be getting removed. The front upper spar will most likely be getting cut where I drew the black line, and I'll extend the braces and weld them further forward so all original structure is intact but allowing for a MUCH larger battery cavity.

I've been a welder/fabricator as a performance auto tech/tuner for the past 20+ years, so fabrication such as this is a walk in the park for me. Once completed, it'll get a re-paint, and look as if it came from the factory as an electric. Honestly, it'll look better than factory, cuz my gosh the welds on this frame are ridiculously chunky and sloppy, with tons of spatter everywhere too. This is a steel frame btw.

To attach the QS165, I'll be adding steel tabs to the lower front of the frame to bolt directly to the motor, and making 6mm alum ">" shaped brackets on the two rear mount tabs on the motor where the left side will go to a 22x17 sleeve on the swingarm, and the right side will get a steel tab welded to the frame. According to my measurements, the right side of the rear motor mounts are further right than the inner edge of the swingarm, so instead of bending a bracket to reach the swingarm bolt, I think it'll be stronger to just go directly to the frame.

Controller will go in the airbox. And depending on what space is left around the battery, I want to try building some form of ducting from the radiator shrouds to the airbox to help cool the controller.
I'll probably be getting a 3" TFT display to mount on the bar (same display as the Ventus One+ has). If not, I'll mount a small ANT BMS LCD display where the gas cap is.

I'm not rich, so this build is going to take a while, possibly up to a year.

 

[DonCox]

I am glad I helped you get interested in building an electric dirt bike. You look very thorough in your plans. You look like you want a lot of power and will ride this really hard, Have you ridden a Stark yet? I have and quite often can and do, but I cannot use all the power on it. I am getting more than enough power and reliability out of the choices I have made. What are your goals for the bike. Because what you start with could make for a lot less work for you, and a cleaner / better outcome. I think the best bike to start with is either a YZ250-450F 2014 and newer, or a 2018-23 KTM 450SXF ( 250SXF is slightly narrower in the bottom frame rails). My goal, since I am older is to keep the bike a respectable 240-250 lbs, and handle well. Both of these bikes can be built into off road racers without cutting any frame parts. Cutting mounts off are ok, but not necessary on either of these bike. I have built each both ways. Without cutting off the mounts , the 1/4 aluminum mounts that Lithium-King.com make go in with minimum work to mount the motor in both of these frames. The motor we have found to be the best is the QS138 70H V3, for power, reliability, heat, and size. At 72V ( nominal, 84V peak, 20S12P Molicel battery), I usually run at 300A to 400A. But to get that power, you overheat the Controller, (a Votol EM260S), so we water cool that. Most any controller you use at these powers, will need water cooling . Airboxes have no air flow, you must force airflow or have the controller mounted in the main airstream. Water cooling is actually easy. And the next thing that overheats is the battery.
We live hear in Southern US. I live in Lake Havasu City, AZ , look up the weather this week here... 115+ We went, Phillip and I, him on his Stark, and me on my 2022 KTM 250SXF electric, to Glen Helen Motocross track on Thursday ( 95-98 degree heat) and rode one bodies worth of motos. ( we wore out before the bikes did. I charge mine between each ride to keep it charged, and Phillip used up 3/4 of his Stark battery) I got about 20 laps in, in about 3 6-7 lap motos, and no bike overheating for either of us. We have fought all the heat related issues over the years. I have just built and put a new battery in my KTM. I salvaged the cells from a Stark battery, Molicel P45B cells at 20S12P in a quick change size to pull in and out of the KTM for longer races. I haven't made the second battery yet, but i do have the cells to do it. Amorge can make them for you. Battery building is a tough and dangerous game if you don't have experience and or a good mentor, and I have built a lot , and ended up in the ER from it once too, but there is a fire danger also. Amorge.com can build what ever you want, and at a good price.
We build our batteries using the Smart BMS only for charging and Balancing, with no Discharge control. We do this to reduce the heat buildup, and we let the controller watch for low voltage, and the smart BMS feature for us to monitor cell activity and levels. Amorge can build a battery for you that way too, they call it Open Discharge. I can point you to good chargers, and the 120V line limits you to about 13-15A charging, so we use 2 chargers in parallel for about 25-30A charging.
There is a KTM I just did on this forum, I buillt for my brother in law.

2019 KTM 450SXF Factory Edition Conversion to Electric Street Legal

I just finished this build and I wanted to share the build, because I think this is one of the easiest frame/models to convert, with minimum modification. None to the frame , only plastics are modified. This is a 2019 KTM, but I believe the GasGas and Husky will be almost identical...

electricdirtriders.com

This battery with very minimal mods could be made to be quick disconnect.
I'm just kind of rambling, tell me what you want to with this new ride, and I'd be glad to help

 

[VINSANITY]

I built on the same chassis.

Don helped a lot and I’m real satisfied with the end result.

I went for a 96 volt system with a FarDriver ND 961000 controller and I used the QS138 70H motor.

The FarDriver 961000 just barely fit in the airbox.

I have some tips on the build if you are interested.

 

[MotoxXxMan]

I am glad I helped you get interested in building an electric dirt bike. You look very thorough in your plans. You look like you want a lot of power and will ride this really hard...

Yeah I've watched almost all your videos. I had already decided to do an electric conversion before I came across your channel, I've just found your vids to be rather helpful in making some decisions, and gathering new ideas I hadn't thought of prior.
No I've never ridden any electric bikes before, only the typical gas bikes; 125 and 250 2-strokes, 250 and 450 4strokes. Performance I seek is somewhere similar to a 250 4stroke. I'm 5'8" and only weigh 135lbs, so I don't need a ton of power, I just like having a lot of power haha. I've been building race cars my entire life as a career, so you can understand my mentality, but smart enough to know everything needs to be within reason.
Bike weight goal is as light as possible, but knowing it could reach around 240pounds, which is fine by me. I'll be eliminating weight anywhere I can, while still keeping it safe and structural.
I have no problem at all with cutting things off the frame permanently. This bike will never go back to being gas, so it'll never be necessary to have the original motor mounts intact. It's also much stronger (and lighter) to have custom welded mounts made specific to the motor being used as compared to adding brackets to accomodate and extend original mounts. Fabrication is the easiest part of this build in my opinion, at least for a person like me who has been fabricating steel and aluminum for over 2 decades at work.

I love when people ramble, when they're intelligent enough for it to be useful, which I've found your rambling to always be, so ramble away! haha. Sometimes the best ideas come out from random rambling. I do it all the time.

I've watched a LOT of videos of gas bikes converted to electric using the qs138 70h v3, and a number of them using the 90h as well. And to be honest, I don't think I'll be satisfied with the torque output they provide, especially at higher rpm. So initially, I just did my own research trying to find a torquier QS motor with reduction gears and found the 165 60h v3, which seems to put out the exact torque figures I seek. I took some measurements and found that it should fit snug, but will fit. The only thing I'm actually wondering is if the encoder version extends further than the hall version, because I've seen some other brand motors that have both options and the encoder sensor was typically larger than hall. And from my research, I've learned that hall can be a little twitchy at low rpm, whereas encoder is much more accurate and smoother everywhere, but especially at low rpm.
Have you ever ran an encoder version 138? Or what can you say about the smoothness of the hall sensor version at any speed?

After leaning towards the 165 60h, I later learned that this is the exact motor Dust Moto used in their prototype for over a year with huge success, to an extent. And based on the videos I've seen of it, it appears to have exactly the right power delivery that I desire. After extensive abuse from professional racers testing their prototype bikes though, they started breaking the reduction gears on occasion. So they've now made a new custom CNC machined and heat treated reduction gear setup on their latest prototype version which seems to be holding up just fine. I just can't verify whether they're still using the 165 60h, or if they've moved to a different motor platform. I have spoken directly to QS quite a bit, and they actually mentioned that the motors Dust Moto sourced for their prototype were actually an older version when the motor was first released, and they have since upgraded/strenghtened the reduction gear set and case and bearings, the same way they upgraded the 138 recently. So I think I wont have to worry about breaking gears. I also am not a sponsored pro like Dust was using for testing haha.

I live in Connecticut, so climate is considerably colder than where you are. And it also means I don't have any actual motocross tracks anywhere within an hour drive, so majority of my riding will be one-track, backyard tracks, general nature (natural ground shaped like MX stuff), and some frequent street riding. Here in CT, we have ebike laws that will actually allow me to legally ride on the street, albeit in the shoulder following similar bicycle laws. I do have my motorcycle license, and I can get this bike registered and insured here in the future at some point, which I do plan to do eventually. Just for now I need to get the basic build done successfully first. What I'm getting at though is I won't be on a pro track frequently, so I won't be putting high load on it frequently like what a track requires. So I'm not overly concerned with temps as of yet. I do however know to keep it in the back of my mind, and once completed, I do already plan to start at only around 250amps peak, and slowly increase while closely monitoring temps of the battery, motor, and controller, and upgrade as necessary, or stop raising the power if it hits a potentially dangerous level. If my math is correct, I think I can get away with 400-450 amps peak with a fully air cooled setup, using an add-on heatsink on the controller. And as mentioned in my first post, I do plan to try finding a way to run ducting from the rad shrouds to the airbox to provide constant fresh air moving across the heatsink. If I can't do that, I'll find a way to put scoops on the sides to pull air in. I'm really not concerned with the fabrication of it all, I'm sure I'll find a way to get fresh air moving across it one way or another. May even put a few PC fans on it.

For the battery, your mention of the BMS adding heat to the battery gave me an idea to separate the BMS and cells into their own chambers within the battery, so the BMS can't add heat to the cells. I'm sure that will help. I do want to keep the BMS active though, so it can monitor temps and current, but specifically temps above all else.
I've tossed around the idea of finding a cooling method for the battery too, either for the BMS or the cells, or both. Using an air filter of some sort on two sides to allow air to pass through for much faster cooling. Filtered of course to keep all debris out. Knowing it will no longer be waterproof or water resistant, but I can have the inlet and outlet be tucked up nicely to prevent splashing water from getting in. The idea of ducting comes into play here as well from the shrouds to provide much higher airflow, and keeping liquid water out. While knowing it will not keep humidity out, which is a concern, because it can get quite humid here. I'll start out with a completely sealed battery, and see what my test drives show for temps, and will only attempt air cooling the battery if I find it necessary.

Something else I discovered, after I already decided to use Molicel p50b cells, is they produce considerably less heat then the p42 and p45 at the same draw. I'm hoping this attribute will also help keep the battery cool. Also a nice end result using the p50b is being able to run less cells and get the same capacity and discharge rate compared to the p42 or p45. 22s10p p50b = 22s12p p42. Which means less weight. 44 cells less to be exact. So ~6.5lbs less

I'm also fixed on going 22s for higher rpm than 20s before initiating field weakening. QS has verified with me that the 165 60 v3 is rated to 100v, so 92.4v is perfectly acceptable, and will give higher power and higher speed than a 20s setup. It also has the same 76kv rating as the 138, so speeds are comparable volt for volt. And if I want more, my planned BMS and controller can run up to 24s, so expansion to 23s or 24s is a possibility.

I'm perfectly comfortable building my own batteries. I'm well aware of the risks and what not to do. I'm a very meticulous almost OCD person when it comes to custom design and assembly of nearly anything. And I have a fair amount of experience building and repairing cell battery packs for power tools and RC toys. I already plan on spending multiple days designing the battery, and several more assembling it. As long as it takes me to do it right, is fine by me. I look forward to the amount of money I can save doing it myself. I also love learning things and forming new skills, especially if it's something I can use in the future to make some extra money on the side doing for other people too.
The way I see it though, I know it'll take a good amount of time, and some people see time as money, but I love building things, its what I live for. And the way I see it, I'll save around $1000 building the battery myself, as well as being able to spend a lot of time doing something I love. And the pride in the end of saying I personally built every single aspect of the bike. I enjoy the build process just as much, if not more, than I enjoy the riding process. Complexity keeps my brain happy.

What chargers can you suggest?
And those kill switches you run on the tank; what amperage do you think those could be ran safely at with my 92.4volt setup? When I looked them up, I seemed to only find them being rated at like 200 amps at 12v or 24v. But I also know they often get used on vehicles pushing 1500+ amps, so I have to wonder.

Oh also, I do have both radiators for the bike, and I can get a water plate, so if water cooling the controller becomes necessary, that's very doable as well.

 

[MotoxXxMan]

I built on the same chassis.

Don helped a lot and I’m real satisfied with the end result.

I went for a 96 volt system with a FarDriver ND 961000 controller and I used the QS138 70H motor.

The FarDriver 961000 just barely fit in the airbox.

I have some tips on the build if you are interested.

I built on the same chassis.

Don helped a lot and I’m real satisfied with the end result.

I went for a 96 volt system with a FarDriver ND 961000 controller and I used the QS138 70H motor.

The FarDriver 961000 just barely fit in the airbox.

I have some tips on the build if you are interested.

That's awesome! That controller does look pretty stuffed in there. I took measurements, and it appears I can fit the ND841200 in my airbox, so I'm wondering if yours is a smaller compartment than mine. Because I'm pretty sure the 961000 is a little smaller than the 841200.
I still have more meaurements to take, but I'm planning to run my battery narrower and up inside the frame rails, extending higher up. I'll need to in order to fit above the larger 165 motor. Its nice to see you were able to fit yours completely below the frame rails though.

What size sprockets are you running? and what speeds are you hitting with that setup?
96v as in 23s 96.6v fully charged? or 96v nominal as in 26s?

Depending on overall weight of the bike after completion, and how satisfied I am with the power and speed, I've contemplated building a second battery or modifying the first to be 23s or 24s. Doubt I'd go up to 26s. But there's only one way to find out. Don's 20s seems pretty close to my plan, so I think 22s will do it for me. I hope.

 

[VINSANITY]

I tried the same thing by cutting that frame bracket out thinking I could get a bigger battery in the frame. I found that battery was smaller than the way I ended up with.

Here are some pictures of the cut out frame and cardboard battery mock up. Another problem was getting the battery into the opening.

Also I had an Alta, I feel that 96 volts and peak 400 amps is pretty darn close to Alta power, it can pull wheelies at just about any speed.

 

[MotoxXxMan]

what's your configuration though? 23s or 26s? And how many in parallel? Either way, that's a higher series cell count than I'll be running. And I'm assuming considerably higher total cell count. My first battery will only be 220 cells. I'm guessing yours is 260 cells?

Also, I just double checked my airbox measurements, and crap. I actually can't fit a 841200 in there, at least not without modification. And especially after the added thickness of a heatsink or water plate. There's plenty of room, I'll just have to alter the airbox itself a bit more than expected for it to fit. Like moving the black shock shield further back, and extending the bottom down lower. There's plenty of room to do this though, I'll just need to chop the airbox up a bit more than planned. Some sheet metal and rivets will do the trick. I'm determined to make it fit. I don't think the 1000 series will sustain the average current I'll likely run, whereas the 1200 should no problem.

 

[MotoxXxMan]

I just realized something. The issue of breaking reduction gears some people have ran into. Motorcycles have drivetrain dampers, dirtbikes dont, because they anticipate the slip of the tire in dirt. In car racing, trans gears break more often from impacts than from pure power. Going from no preload and floating with some slop, to load slamming the teeth together with nothing to absorb the impact. I wonder if I could engineer a way to have some rubber damping only on the rotational axis of the motor to prevent high shock loads to the reduction gears? Probably not necessary, but I'll do some brainstorming. Could make for a much smoother and quieter ride too

 

[MotoxXxMan]

For reference, I made a cardboard cutout to the exact dimensions of the qs165 60h v3. Here it is lined up in the frame. This is why I may need to extend the battery up into the frame rails. I also don't mind making an odd shaped battery if necessary, fatter below the rails, and narrower up in between the rails. Time will tell, lots left to do. Still need to buy the motor and controller before anything else, and adjust plans as necessary.

Two things I can say is: I'm not a fan of the cable location on the motor, but I love the location of the mounting points. Absolutely no need for attaching anything to the case of the motor, just use the 3 main intended mounts. You can see why I'm not gonna make brackets like you guys use with the 138, but rather will just weld tabs to the frame for the front mounts, and make ">" brackets for the two rear mounts to the swingarm bolt and possibly to the frame as well or instead. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I realize that it might be best to not even attach anything to the swingarm bolt, and just make frame mounts all around. Doing this also would allow for pretty easy adjustment side to side by merely altering spacer thickness. I'll be using 22mm-26mm OD x 10mm ID spacers wherever they're needed. Thicker the wall, the more stable and stronger they'll be.

 

[MotoxXxMan]

If I can't fit a straight rectangle shape battery, I've also considered something along the lines of the following in blue or red:

 

[VINSANITY]

Here are some pictures of the battery spec from Armoge and some pics of the controller.

 

[DonCox]

Some thoughts, I understand that you are a good fabricator, but I would recommend not to cut and reweld the main frame. Welding in new mounting brackets is OK, but the Integrity of the frame is a tested thing. I have seen modified frames fail. The factory have a lot more engineering in their builds than we think. And they have passed the liability test of many users. I want to go off a jump and feal secure that the frame is solid. Make a battery fit the space you have. The motor you are picking is a strong motor, and there are many choices, but there are others for good reasons. Some motors run hotter, some are watercooled, some mount easier, and some, all the controllers are built for and more people are running them. If I were building a spec bike , put the best motor for the size, and power and water cooled and gear reduction, and 96V rated and RPM, a Sotion GTS35 is the best choice. It is rated at 96V 1200 phase amps which equate to about 600 line amps, or almost 60KW. If you have worked with controllers, you know each one has it's quirks. I have experienced many brands, Votol are my simple and reliable favorite. (Economical also) but good for only 72V and 400A. I have tried Fardriver, Kelly, Sevcon, and friends have used Curtis, 3Shul, and ElectroandCompany.com new line of controllers Noisy Cricket and Zapper ( they still cannot deliver this controller), and they all are unique, and quirky. But the choice I would go with now is the EBMX x9000 V3. This controller has many features including, in the states tech support, and a bluetooth interface to your phone, software designed for your motor. 96V and 500A 50KW, and a watercooling system, and many other features, regen braking choices, etc
These are two of the most important parts and the third is a battery to supply this power.96V and 500A, to push these motor/controllers for a longer time. A battery that could supply this kind of power is at least a 26S13 or14P using the Molicel P45B cells. The P50B cells will just give you 10% more range. But I wish you could get a ride on a Stark and see what 40HP feels like, that is about 30KW, and then try doubling that, it is a skill to use that. 60KW
Do you travel much, to Southern California?? If you could come out here for a weekend, I would meet you at a track in So Cal, Glen Helen is 30 minutes from Ontario airport, and you could ride mine and possible one of my friends Starks, and you can feel what you need. It is amazing the power these guys put out. Or a shorter trip to Texas and Vinsanity and try his bike, I'm sure he would love to have you try his bike.

 

[MotoxXxMan]

Some thoughts, I understand that you are a good fabricator, but I would recommend not to cut and reweld the main frame. Welding in new mounting brackets is OK, but the Integrity of the frame is a tested thing. I have seen modified frames fail. The factory have a lot more engineering in their builds than we think. And they have passed the liability test of many users. I want to go off a jump and feal secure that the frame is solid. Make a battery fit the space you have. The motor you are picking is a strong motor, and there are many choices, but there are others for good reasons. Some motors run hotter, some are watercooled, some mount easier, and some, all the controllers are built for and more people are running them. If I were building a spec bike , put the best motor for the size, and power and water cooled and gear reduction, and 96V rated and RPM, a Sotion GTS35 is the best choice. It is rated at 96V 1200 phase amps which equate to about 600 line amps, or almost 60KW. If you have worked with controllers, you know each one has it's quirks. I have experienced many brands, Votol are my simple and reliable favorite. (Economical also) but good for only 72V and 400A. I have tried Fardriver, Kelly, Sevcon, and friends have used Curtis, 3Shul, and ElectroandCompany.com new line of controllers Noisy Cricket and Zapper ( they still cannot deliver this controller), and they all are unique, and quirky. But the choice I would go with now is the EBMX x9000 V3. This controller has many features including, in the states tech support, and a bluetooth interface to your phone, software designed for your motor. 96V and 500A 50KW, and a watercooling system, and many other features, regen braking choices, etc
These are two of the most important parts and the third is a battery to supply this power.96V and 500A, to push these motor/controllers for a longer time. A battery that could supply this kind of power is at least a 26S13 or14P using the Molicel P45B cells. The P50B cells will just give you 10% more range. But I wish you could get a ride on a Stark and see what 40HP feels like, that is about 30KW, and then try doubling that, it is a skill to use that. 60KW
Do you travel much, to Southern California?? If you could come out here for a weekend, I would meet you at a track in So Cal, Glen Helen is 30 minutes from Ontario airport, and you could ride mine and possible one of my friends Starks, and you can feel what you need. It is amazing the power these guys put out. Or a shorter trip to Texas and Vinsanity and try his bike, I'm sure he would love to have you try his bike.

Yeah I mentioned above that if my controller ends up not working out for me, I'm going straight for the ebmx x9000. I completely agree with that suggestion.
I've also checked out the gts35, and see that as a candidate as well. And have decided that to be my second choice if the qs165 doesn't work out the way I hope. I'm actually still researching the various motors on the market. Probably won't change my mind for the first round running the qs165, but it's possible. I have a good month or two before I actually start buying components, so I'm using that time to gather as much info as possible.

As for the frame cutting, I don't plan on altering anything structural unless absolutely necessary, and will be sure to modify it in a way that retains its original structure, just with altered dimensions. Safety is paramount, and I wouldn't risk altering structure in a way that would potentially weaken it. I'm clearly not an actual frame engineer and tester for the big 4 mx companies, but I have closely followed all the designs over the last 3 decades and their pros and cons, strengths and abilities to flex intentionally, even extending into the motorcycle racing industry. I have a fair amount of structural engineering training, and can tell why certain attributes of mx frames are what they are. I respect your opinion and completely agree with you. However I am comfortable in modifying the frame the ways I've mentioned if it becomes necessary. I've already worked out the ways to reattach it all without sacrificing any strength in its structure.

As for the battery, have you seen all the other improvements with the p50b over the p45b besides capacity? CDR is considerably higher (~20%-25% higher) for what it can run truly continuous for the full capacity without exceeding temp. But also, Temperature rise rate, cycle depletion (lifespan), peak current, voltage sag, and almost every other aspect has been drastically improved over the p45b. To the point where they can continuously put out ~20%-25% higher current at the same rise in temp rate as p45b.
I already plan to build two batteries in the long run. The first is not definite yet, it will depend on the space I find I'm able to work with after actually getting the motor installed. The current plan for p50b 22s10p is not set in stone yet, it's just my lower level plan so far unless I discover I can go bigger without exceeding my weight goal. I know my first battery will likely be smaller than I'll want long term, in fact I know that a lot of my plans are abnormal. But I really enjoy the long term projects and the R&D and testing and changing things that comes with it. I spent 10+years with my last project, a racecar, using a chassis everyone advised not to use, and won 5 championships in a row with it. Then modified the original motor quite heavily, the one honda motor everyone says is junk and pointless to modify at all, and I set multiple world records with it, some of which happened by doing specific things people often advise against doing too. Now I'm rambling... lol. Long story short, no matter what the arrangement of my battery ends up being, it will consist of p50b cells. That's the one thing I am set in stone about. All other aspects are still to be determined as it comes together, and I'm always open to suggestion.

Anyway, I would love to ride a stark, or any well made electric conversion. I don't really have that option though, and I don't travel, merely because I can't afford it, I'd rather spend my money on all the above haha. And in my mind, failure is always an option, but not a negative thing, just proof that it needs to be done differently. And when I do things differently than everyone else I often succeed, and prove it can work very well, and everyone learns something. Like Dust Moto using the qs165 in their prototype for over a year with huge success (part of my inspiration as previously mentioned). I'm sure the first person who planned to push 30kw through a qs138 (a 3kw/4kw motor remember) was called nuts and everyone expected them to fail. But they proved everyone wrong, and now that's the most common conversion. Oy, I'm rambling again. its 4am...

This is a long term experiment for me, and while I hope I wont need to redo anything, or completely change certain components, I know multiple iterations are possible before reaching my overall goal, and I'm totally fine with that. Just like my career building racecars; datalogging, frequent close inspections of everything, and frequently making changes to the tune while observing the results; will all be of highest importance in determining the true ideal setup for my end goal.