240V Inverter in a Van or Truck

[WoodsWeapon]

No apologies needed, we’re all learning. When my battery failed last year and Alta sent a rep to my house to replace it, neither of us had ever done the swap before. The tech was a new hire, and we had it done in 15 minutes easily. Moreso because we were both curious of things we hadnt seen before.
We also tied the bike up into a wheelie position from my rafters to prevent crawling on the ground, and Id have to say that would be much easier than doing it in the field.

 

[Philip]

I thought someone mentioned that the part could be swapped out quickly..?

It is a quick 5-minute job when two factory mechanics do it. But I do not think any single racer would be able to do it alone by himself between motos, two-three times per week.

I really hope the next generation of the Redshift would make the battery swapping either easy or unnecessary.

 

[Bionicman]

It’s not designed to be continually plugged in and unplugged without compromising the integrity of the connection, if that makes any better sense.

Ok your referncing the interface between battery & bike ?

 

[snydes]

Ok your referncing the interface between battery & bike ?

Yes, although I haven’t had one apart myself so I can’t speak from experience.

 

[bluefxstc]

I have a 10kw lithium battery pack that I was using on another project. That project is dead, so I thought I would repurpose as a pack to power an inverter to charge my EX when camping without access to power. In talking to inverter manufactures, one of them states that if it is an inductive load, you need an inverter that is 3-7 times larger than the continuous load, in this case 1300-1400W. Inductive loads are typically things like motors, transformers, things with wire windings… I pretty sure the Alta battery charger has transformers in it, but would it be considered an inductive load to size an inverter?

 

[allesad]

FYI, There is a market for crashed EV's (Leafs, tesla's, ect.) as a means to get cheap Lithium Packs.

 

[Silent But Dirty]

It’s not designed to be continually plugged in and unplugged without compromising the integrity of the connection, if that makes any better sense.

I believe it's only the Ip68 rating that suffers from redoing the connection multiple times.

 

[WoodsWeapon]

Didnt think of that, but seems logical.

 

[Judaslefourbe]

I believe it's only the Ip68 rating that suffers from redoing the connection multiple times.

This is not correct. The contacts themselves (within the connector) are not rated for high-cycle life.
Over time they would degrade, with resistance increasing. The extreme failure case from this high resistance would be fire.

 

[Silent But Dirty]

This is not correct. The contacts themselves (within the connector) are not rated for high-cycle life.
Over time they would degrade, with resistance increasing. The extreme failure case from this high resistance would be fire.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Philip]

I have a 10kw lithium battery pack that I was using on another project. That project is dead, so I thought I would repurpose as a pack to power an inverter to charge my EX when camping without access to power. In talking to inverter manufactures, one of them states that if it is an inductive load, you need an inverter that is 3-7 times larger than the continuous load, in this case 1300-1400W. Inductive loads are typically things like motors, transformers, things with wire windings… I pretty sure the Alta battery charger has transformers in it, but would it be considered an inductive load to size an inverter?

I am curious to know the answer to this.

 

[Philip]

So... I had Recipe #1, then Recipe #2, and now I have one more recipe:

RECIPE #3

1) Buy a 12 - 110/240V inverter+charger:
4000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter Charger - 12 Vdc to 120/240 Vac
(DONE!)

2) Buy 3x 100 Ah Lithium batteries:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XX197GJ/?tag=sce0f-20

Total: ~$3,800

Positives:
- Silent, most of the time. I can charge my Redshift for 1 full hour from 240V with a Standard (or maybe even a Rapid) charger without turning the van on.
- No heat from the van's engine.
- No need to install dual upgraded alternators (reportedly takes longer than a day on my van, and the cost can never be recouped).
- Not too bulky and relatively light. These three batteries will weigh 87 lbs and take up just 13x21x9" total. The inverter is 65 lbs.
- Can charge these batteries at home, and also can install solar panels on the roof.
- No buying extra gas to charge the bike. No wear and tear on the van's engine.
- These batteries should last forever (3000-5000 cycles = 40+ years of riding).
- Extra bonus: I can run lots of electric appliances in the van, or run an electric AC/heater/dehumidifier from these three batteries for 2 days straight!

Negatives:
- Cost.
- Require a permanent installation of the inverter and the batteries inside the van (or preferably under the van!!!).

 

[Philip]

Some questions still remain:

1) Do I need the stock lead battery at all? Should I replace it with Lithium?
-- Yes, it is needed for starting. LiFePO4 batteries are not designed for engine starting loads.

2) If I have to keep the stock lead battery, then do I need a "battery isolator"?
-- Yes.

3) Will I really have enough power to run the Rapid charger, if I parallel three Lithium batteries with one stock Lead battery?
-- The Standard chargers -- yes. The Rapid charger -- maybe. I may have to run the engine or add a 4th LiFePO4 battery.

4) Will these batteries really last over 10 years?

5) Which gauge wire will I need to transmit 12VDC 300A of power to/from these batteries?

 

[Philip]

These batteries are promising a smaller size, weight, cost, and a longer life. They just do not have a built-in BMS (Battery Management System).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078JB836N/?tag=sce0f-20

 

[rayivers]

would it be considered an inductive load to size an inverter?

The first stage of the charger after the AC line input is likely a rectifier feeding filter capacitors, so I imagine it will present a capacitive load to the inverter. This shouldn't be a problem if the inverter's power rating is maybe 10% or so higher than the charger's draw.

Transformer windings have some inductance, but in general it's whatever the transformer is driving that reflects back to the transformer input / power source.

 

[bluefxstc]

I received the inverter last week and set up my LiFePO4, off grid charging system over the weekend. I used it once to charge the bike and everything worked just like I was plugged into the wall. The system consists of 75, CALB CA 40AH cells in a 15 series, 5 parallel configuration. System voltage is 48 VDC and has 10Kw of power. Size of the pack is about 23 inches by 28 inches. The batteries weigh about 240 lbs so the total system weight will be about 270 lbs, minus the Alta charger. I plan to box or bolt the batteries/inverter together so I can use an engine hoist to lift it into the back of my truck when I need it. I would have rather gone to a higher voltage to reduce the current and wire size, but I have a riding lawn mower I converted with 15 CALB CA100 AH cells, so by sticking with 48 Vdc, I can use the same charger for both systems.

I used a 3000W pure sine wave inverter I purchased off eBay for $266 USD. Inverter seems to work with no problems noted, but I have only used it once, so not sure how long it will last. The vendor I purchased the inverter from recommended the 3000W inverter for a 1500W continuous load so that is what I went with. You may be able to go smaller, but I would rather have the increased inverter capacity for longer life and future options. The vendor also recommended that I purchase an EMI filter for the inverter output. I did purchase that, but haven’t wired it up yet, so system test was without the filter. It seemed to work fine without the filter, but since I purchased the filter, I will probably use it.

At full charger operations the inverter draws about 30A with each of the 5 parallel battery legs providing about 6A. In the late phase of charging the system current draw decreased to less than 5A as the charger decreases the current to the bike battery. The battery is wired with 10ga wire or bradded straps connecting each parallel battery section together and then 6ga to the inverter. Total overkill, but I kind of believe in overkill with stuff like this. I have a 120A slow blow fuse in the hot lead to the inverter for safety and may install a contactor to switch on the power to the inverter.

I could have purchased a 240 Vac inverter to charge faster, but chose to go with 120 Vac. Most of the time when I use the inverter I will be camping, so going with 120 Vac gives me the options to use the inverter to power other items that I couldn’t power with 240. I also don’t see me riding more than once a day when camping so slower charging is not a big issue. Riding more than once a day for a couple of hours, probably would not be conducive for a good home. Happy wife, happy life.

There is no question that if you just want to charge you bike off grid, a generator is the cheapest option. The batteries alone for this project were about $4,500, but I purchased them for another project that didn’t work out, so I was using what I had. As has been mentioned before you could use the batteries out of a wrecked Leaf or Volt and that may be a cheaper option, but you would need to figure out the charger and BMS. I have the same type of CALB cells in my lawn mower and an earlier version of the cells in my converted 300zx. Both operate without a BMS and I have had no problems. I have been driving the car as my daily driver since 2011 and have about 40,000 miles on it so I am comfortable operating the CALB cells without a BMS. Below is a picture of the pack. On the left side of the photo you can see part of the inverter. This is just a test setup and when I finalize/finish the design, I will post pictures of the final system.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[snydes]

I received the inverter last week and set up my LiFePO4, off grid charging system over the weekend. I used it once to charge the bike and everything worked just like I was plugged into the wall. The system consists of 75, CALB CA 40AH cells in a 15 series, 5 parallel configuration. System voltage is 48 VDC and has 10Kw of power. Size of the pack is about 23 inches by 28 inches. The batteries weigh about 240 lbs so the total system weight will be about 270 lbs, minus the Alta charger. I plan to box or bolt the batteries/inverter together so I can use an engine hoist to lift it into the back of my truck when I need it. I would have rather gone to a higher voltage to reduce the current and wire size, but I have a riding lawn mower I converted with 15 CALB CA100 AH cells, so by sticking with 48 Vdc, I can use the same charger for both systems.

I used a 3000W pure sine wave inverter I purchased off eBay for $266 USD. Inverter seems to work with no problems noted, but I have only used it once, so not sure how long it will last. The vendor I purchased the inverter from recommended the 3000W inverter for a 1500W continuous load so that is what I went with. You may be able to go smaller, but I would rather have the increased inverter capacity for longer life and future options. The vendor also recommended that I purchase an EMI filter for the inverter output. I did purchase that, but haven’t wired it up yet, so system test was without the filter. It seemed to work fine without the filter, but since I purchased the filter, I will probably use it.

At full charger operations the inverter draws about 30A with each of the 5 parallel battery legs providing about 6A. In the late phase of charging the system current draw decreased to less than 5A as the charger decreases the current to the bike battery. The battery is wired with 10ga wire or bradded straps connecting each parallel battery section together and then 6ga to the inverter. Total overkill, but I kind of believe in overkill with stuff like this. I have a 120A slow blow fuse in the hot lead to the inverter for safety and may install a contactor to switch on the power to the inverter.

I could have purchased a 240 Vac inverter to charge faster, but chose to go with 120 Vac. Most of the time when I use the inverter I will be camping, so going with 120 Vac gives me the options to use the inverter to power other items that I couldn’t power with 240. I also don’t see me riding more than once a day when camping so slower charging is not a big issue. Riding more than once a day for a couple of hours, probably would not be conducive for a good home. Happy wife, happy life.

There is no question that if you just want to charge you bike off grid, a generator is the cheapest option. The batteries alone for this project were about $4,500, but I purchased them for another project that didn’t work out, so I was using what I had. As has been mentioned before you could use the batteries out of a wrecked Leaf or Volt and that may be a cheaper option, but you would need to figure out the charger and BMS. I have the same type of CALB cells in my lawn mower and an earlier version of the cells in my converted 300zx. Both operate without a BMS and I have had no problems. I have been driving the car as my daily driver since 2011 and have about 40,000 miles on it so I am comfortable operating the CALB cells without a BMS. Below is a picture of the pack. On the left side of the photo you can see part of the inverter. This is just a test setup and when I finalize/finish the design, I will post pictures of the final system.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask.

View attachment 614

Very cool!

 

[rayivers]

Some questions still remain:

Here's some items that might help (or maybe not):

a) Lead-acid batteries can be charged from an alternator; large lithium batteries should be charged with a CC/CV (constant-current / constant-voltage) unit that charges at a preset max current initially, transitioning to a preset voltage level at top-up.

b) In general, non-BMS batteries fight each other when paralleled (since no two batteries are absolutely identical, the stronger battery sees the weaker one as a load, and the weaker one sees the stronger as a charger). Most Zero models run several BMS battery packs in parallel, successfully for the most part.

IMO the whole thing boils down to one question: if you want to use a giant battery, how will you charge it?

If a single fast charge at the track will be satisfactory, you could parallel several large 12V BMS battery packs ($$$) & run the output into your 4K inverter (all this mounted in the van), then charge up at home the previous night with a CC/CV charger. This would give you one complete silent 240V quick charge at the track, without putting your van's battery or alternator at risk and possibly leaving you stranded.

bluefxstc's 48V system gives a lot more flexibility than a 12V one.

 

[rayivers]

It really is too bad that a schematic of the Alta charger isn't available - it would be so easy to see if a high-voltage battery pack could feed the charger circuits directly, instead of converting 12VDC to 240VAC to 350VDC with all the associated problems of each conversion.

 

[Philip]

IMO the whole thing boils down to one question: if you want to use a giant battery, how will you charge it?

Most of the time I will be using shore power (at home) and my 240VAV inverter/charger. But I want to be able to use the van's alternator as well. I might have to buy an additional controller for that.

bluefxstc's 48V system gives a lot more flexibility than a 12V one.

It is not too late for me to exchange my inverter/charger for a 48VDC system. But I wonder, besides the thinner wires, would it be worth the complications. What kind of flexibility do you have in mind?