240V Inverter in a Van or Truck

[snydes]

Not sure what the rules are here on vendors, and I don’t want to break any rules. Really not looking to sell anything, but I also don’t want to see people pay more than they have too. I have seen some really high numbers floating around on what it will cost for an off grid charging setup. I have a small business doing EV conversions, so sell both CALB (batteries) and Elcon (chargers). If you want a lithium battery, off grid charging here is what it will cost:

Batteries: 17 CALB 100 AH cells $2380 ($140 EA) plus shipping. Shipping is via UPS ground. The weight of 17 cells is about 127 Lbs so it is not cheap, probably $100-300 in the continental US, but it will not change that much with additional cells. Additionally, you will need 16 battery straps per group of 17 cells at $2.00 each so $32 per set. 17 cells will give you 5.5Kw of power, so good for fast or slow charge, depending on the inverter you chose and charger you have. If you want to do more charges, just add another bank of 17 cells. Realistically you can get 5Kw out of a bank of 17 cells so a good solid charge, but not 100%.

Charger: An Elcon 1500W is $525 or $665 for a 2500W charger. A 2500W charger requires 240Vac so I would recommend a 1500. Get home from riding, plug it in and go to sleep. It will be charged in the morning. You could also probably power the 1500W charger from a vehicle inverter if you really wanted to, your choice, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

Inverter: My inverter which seems fine for charging at 120Vac was $266 off ebay. They have a 5000W version which will do 240Vac out so it should power an Alta fast charger, but no promises there since I haven’t tested it. The cost for the 5kw inverter is $590.

Misc Parts: You will need a fuse which is $10-50, some fairly large wire $50, Connectors $20 and an enclosure of your choice for less than $100.

Tools: Only basic hand tools. The only specialized tools you need is a good set of wire crimpers. 3.3kw at 48Vdc is almost 70A so you want to make sure you have good wire connections or you will build heat. In the price estimate I am assuming you have all the tools you need.

Rounding the numbers and adding in approximate shipping the total cost for a charge system is about:

Slow Charge Fast charge

Batteries $2700 Same
Charger $550 Same
Inverter $270 $590
Misc $300 Same
Total $3820 $4140

A 4kw generator is a cheaper option, but if you want off grid, lithium battery charging, this is what I can get it to you for. You can also adjust these numbers some. You can add more batteries for more power, but then you will need a different inverter unless you go to parallel strings of batteries. In my setup I have 15 cells in series but quoted 17 here for more power so there are options. Pretty sure different inverters are available, I have seen them all the way up to 120Vdc input, but I don’t have firm info on them.

Excellent info, glad we have you here!

 

[Philip]

Thanks for the offer, @bluefxstc , but I bought these batteries a day before your post. They have built-in BMS for peace of mind. And my inverter already has a built-in battery charger. It only charges from 240V, but I might manage for now.

I am going full steam ahead. Just ordered 4/0 AWG cables, heavy duty cable lugs, a crimping tool, a 500A fuse, and a bluetooth battery monitor, so that I do not have to climb into the van to see whether it is fully charged.

I am also researching RV charging plugs and cables. I will have to make a custom cable because all 4-wire 240V RV cables are 50A, and are ridiculously thick and heavy. I only need about 6A, or 22A if I decide to charge the batteries, charge the Redshift inside the van, or run other appliances simultaneously, so a thinner cable should do. This reminds me, I will be needing a 30A circuit breaker.

The batteries will be installed under the van. I climbed in there today and removed the parking brake linkage, which was in the way. I will be relocating it.

I need to weld a battery tray out of 90deg steel angles and hang it under the van. I ordered some rivet nuts to attach the battery tray to the van's frame members.

While under the van, I also found a nice place for a 20 gallon (30x16x10") water tank. This is to wash bikes and perhaps in the future install a shower. I might as well install the water tank now, while I am on a roll.

There is no turning back now!

 

[Philip]

Besides adding LiFePO4 batteries and an inverter, I am also converting my van into a camper van at the same time. I will be leaving a lot of unrelated projects for later, but the electrical system must be started off correctly from the beginning, else I will be re-doing it over and over.

I am now in the official state of analysis paralysis. Lots of electrical parts arrived from Amazon today, and I need to order a lot more. Need to pick a place to install all the fuses, circuit breakers, the battery monitor, switches, etc. Need to pick a good place for an electrical cabinet. Something like this, perhaps.

I also need to draw the circuit diagram for all the wiring that I will ever want in this van. The bare bones wiring is simple, but I just realized it might become a lot more complex later. I counted almost 30 circuits that I may want to have in my van. They are 12VDC circuits, 110VAC circuits, and 240VAC circuits. I am not counting 5V USB circuits, I will probably 110V outlets with integrated USB chargers. My head is hurting. Here is the list:

Inverter
Inverter's remote control panel
Car battery
LiFePO4 batteries
Charge monitor
Heater (maybe)
LED lights 1
LED lights 2 (maybe)
LED Exterior light (maybe)
Fresh Water Pump
Shower Waste Water Pump (maybe)
Awning Motor (maybe)
Ceiling fan 1
Ceiling fan 2
Refrigerator (plugged into a 110V outlet)
Cell Signal Booster (maybe)
Tank heaters (maybe)
12V outlet 1
12V outlet 2
110V power strip
110V and USB outlet 1
110V and USB outlet 2
110V outlet 3
110V outlet 4
240V outlet
240V shore power
110V shore power
Solar controller (maybe)

I was about to download a circuit diagram software, but I then realized it might only exacerbate my analysis paralysis. I should instead hand-draw a few key must-have circuits, then combine them together, then add the rest.

I am learning. This is going to be the biggest EE project that I have ever done, LOL!

 

[OneLapper]

Philip,

I'm in the process of building out a 12 bunk entertainer coach for band to lease. I've almost completed wiring the entire thing and what I found was with today's LEDs the loads on the circuits are pretty low.

All the 110vac outlets in your example can be combined into one circuit using 10ga wire and 20amp breaker. You're not going to have a tons of things plugged in and going at the same time.

The roof AC needs it's own dedicated 10ga 20amp circuit.

The 12vdc circuits should go to a 12vdc distribution panel that allows you to turn the devices on and off with the circuit breaker.

Think of the 240, 110, and 12vdc as separate entities and design the circuits for each. It'll make the project easier.

 

[Philip]

That's a good and useful advice here. Thank you, Mark.

I did not think about using circuit breakers on 12V circuits. How to decide whether to use a circuit breaker or a fuse?

I am having a hard time separating the 120V and 240V circuits because all of my 120V comes from the 240V legs.

But I definitely need to physically separate the 120/240V shore power from the 120/240V inverter outputs.

 

[OneLapper]

I would figure out how the 240 inverter handles unbalanced 110vac loads. You might find you need a small 110vac inverter to power a mircrowave or such.

 

[OneLapper]

But I definitely need to physically separate the 120/240V shore power from the 120/240V inverter outputs.

Is it an inverter charger?

 

[Philip]

I would figure out how the 240 inverter handles unbalanced 110vac loads. You might find you need a small 110vac inverter to power a mircrowave or such.

My A/C is a standalone 110V unit. I also have a small fridge. The inverter has then both on the same leg and they work just fine.

Is it an inverter charger?

Yes. This is the model:
Aims Power 4000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter Charger 12VDC to120/240 VAC

 

[Philip]

I realized today that I will not be using the Neutral wire on my 240V shore power input, ever. If I connect the 240V shore power the inverter has an automatic transfer switch, which will disconnect the inverter's output from the batteries and connect it to the shore power. This is all done automatically and seamlessly, with just a 10ms drop in power.

Then my 120V devices will continue getting their power from the inverter. I need to verify this.

So, if this is the case, I can get away with using only a 3-wire 240V cable!

But I will need a 120V transfer switch, if I do not have a 240V shore power but only have 120V.

 

[maccos]

Forgive me if this has been discussed already, but it seems like all the back and forth of converting the power from AC to DC then back to AC, to back again to DC, that seems like it would cause waste and just be more expensive. (I'm assuming you are charging a battery bank from an alternator source and then using that battery to charge the bike) I understand why Alta makes a charger that accepts AC power because it's likely the most available source of power from a gas generator, but what if you plan to recharge the bike battery from a battery bank....cant you just skip the Alta charging unit and send direct DC power form your source battery to the Alta battery? It at least cuts down on one conversion step maybe. (I'm still very new to all this, but interested in finding an elegant solution)

 

[Philip]

what if you plan to recharge the bike battery from a battery bank....cant you just skip the Alta charging unit and send direct DC power form your source battery to the Alta battery? It at least cuts down on one conversion step maybe.

Yes, this is possible, if your charger is smart, can communicate with the bike, and follow its commands.

@MVetter from DigiNow said they can figure out the communication protocol and build a charger that can charge from anything. However, nobody handed them a wad of cash right away, so they are lying low, probably until there are more Alta owners that Zero owners. They are making cool chargers for electric cars too.

 

[MVetter]

Yes, this is possible, if your charger is smart, can communicate with the bike, and follow its commands.

@MVetter from DigiNow said they can figure out the communication protocol and build a charger that can charge from anything. However, nobody handed them a wad of cash right away, so they are lying low, probably until there are more Alta owners that Zero owners. They are making cool chargers for electric cars too.

Not even about a wad of cash (though we wouldn't turn that down). We want to make sure it makes good business sense to invest time and energy to write code, source materials, do test builds, and all the other R&D processes if only two dozen people are interested in it. Also I keep hearing secondhand that Alta people want to talk to us but I've reached out to them before and never heard anything back. *shrug*. We're here and watching.

Also my god I would love to take a good electric dirt bike into the mountains of Colorado like I used to growing up. I'm probably going to need one of these bikes at some point.

 

[Philip]

We want to make sure it makes good business sense to invest time and energy to write code, source materials, do test builds, and all the other R&D processes if only two dozen people are interested in it. Also I keep hearing secondhand that Alta people want to talk to us but I've reached out to them before and never heard anything back. *shrug*. We're here and watching.

Thanks for handing around!

Here is what I am thinking people will would pay for:

1) An adapter plug to charge Alta SM into the J-plug outlets. Perhaps it will become a feature on the new SMR, so I'd wait until the new SMR comes out.

2) A small 110V charger to carry with you on your EX/EXR. Perhaps with an optional J-plug. This product will always be in demand.

3) If you could make a 120VAC 30A charger, then it could be plugged into a pair of linked 2000W 110V generators. This would solve a lot of fast charging problems for racers in the North America. The 110V generators are quiet, cheap and plentiful, but 240V generators are usually industrial, big and heavy around here.

4) A complete charging solution that can charge the Alta from a used Tesla battery.

---------------------------------

You should list how much each of these items would cost, and how many you will need to sell. Then we could be able to help you decide which of them can be made commercially viable.

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There is a a significant Colorado representation here. @Elite Motorsports , @MotoMinded . Perhaps they could take you on a tour when you are in Colorado next time.

 

[Elite Motorsports]

Thanks for handing around!

Here is what I am thinking people will would pay for:

1) An adapter plug to charge Alta SM into the J-plug outlets. Perhaps it will become a feature on the new SMR, so I'd wait until the new SMR comes out.

2) A small 110V charger to carry with you on your EX/EXR. Perhaps with an optional J-plug. This product will always be in demand.

3) If you could make a 120VAC 30A charger, then it could be plugged into a pair of linked 2000W 110V generators. This would solve a lot of fast charging problems for racers in the North America. The 110V generators are quiet, cheap and plentiful, but 240V generators are usually industrial, big and heavy around here.

4) A complete charging solution that can charge the Alta from a used Tesla battery.

---------------------------------

You should list how much each of these items would cost, and how many you will need to sell. Then we could be able to help you decide on which of them can be made commercially viable.

---------------------------------

There is a a significant Colorado representation here. @Elite Motorsports , @MotoMinded . Perhaps they could take you on a tour when you are in Colorado next time.

We love tours!

 

[MVetter]

Ha. I know the exact trails I want. I grew up spending summers in Ouray and playing around in the mountains around there and Telluride. I am curious if the bikes, as they stand now, would let you start in Ouray, go up over Imogene, down into Telluride, need a full charge I assume, then back up and over Imogene and into a relaxing hot tub.

Or how much they could do of Engineer Pass, etc. I love the idea of not losing power and screwing with main jets like I used to.

 

[Speedkills]

MVetter, where are you located and what are you looking for when you say “people to talk to”? I’m in SF, if that’s close to you I could bring a bike by. I’d be up for any sort of solution I could take with me that would allow charging from a J1772 adapter or some other public charge station. As is, even if you gave me an adapter tomorrow there is no way I can lug my current charger around in a backpack, it’s huge. I’m wondering if something ChaDeMo based would be smaller as it might be mostly about the controller, not actually needing a big inverter? Dunno, I know next to nothing about electrical which is why we need you!

 

[maccos]

@MVetter yea I totally understand not wanting to invest in a product like this if only a few people are interested, plus with the pace of changing tech, anything you design and make today will likely be obsolete in 3 years once Alta makes changes and upgrades. I feel like that is one of the downsides to being an owner of an electric bike this early in the game. I assume 2-3 years from now, current bikes will be very outdated (power, capacity, charge time) and the value of it will be null, sort of like buying a laptop or cell phone... Hopefully Alta or other manufactures will make the battery/driveline modular so new components can be swapped out as they are improved.

 

[schwankl]

@Philip How's your progress? How does the aims inverter charger work at split-phase 240 with a r-charger?
My current design/recipe uses tesla model s 5.3kwh modules (starting w/ 1) and victron multiplus 24/3000 ... starting /w 1, single phase, and plan is going to 2 for 240 split-phase for rapid charging, and maybe support ~6kw charging in the future. The 2 inverter chargers do complicate a bit, but I like the redundancy. Researched the inverter chargers and victron has the most flexibility/programability/li-ion support, docs and 5yr warranty. Anyone here using a victron multiplus?

 

[MVetter]

@MVetter yea I totally understand not wanting to invest in a product like this if only a few people are interested, plus with the pace of changing tech, anything you design and make today will likely be obsolete in 3 years once Alta makes changes and upgrades. I feel like that is one of the downsides to being an owner of an electric bike this early in the game. I assume 2-3 years from now, current bikes will be very outdated (power, capacity, charge time) and the value of it will be null, sort of like buying a laptop or cell phone... Hopefully Alta or other manufactures will make the battery/driveline modular so new components can be swapped out as they are improved.

I'm sure we'd be more aggressively pursuing this if we were Alta owners and our lives revolved around dirt bikes. That's how digiNow started anyway, because Brandon couldn't recharge his race bike fast enough between heats and there wasn't a good charging solution. So he made his own. Then other people wanted it, too.

@Speedkills I wanted to reach out to people at Alta and work with them if there's a product to be made here. I'm down in Monterey Bay but would definitely make a trip up north for a meeting. I can do that on a Zero with fast charging. *cough* (was I too obvious?)

 

[schwankl]

(off topic) @MVetter imogene pass Imogene Pass looks to be ~4,300ft accent from telluride... I do mineral fork ( ~3,600ft up from trailhead - Mineral Fork Trail ) almost daily on my commute from work and only loose about ~20% of battery round trip, but its a slow technical trail, i keep it <15mph.