Alta kit bike


TonyWilliams

User asked to be "deleted"
Likes
172
Location
San Diego, California USA
Can we have a longevity thread? Their fleet and folks with empathy have data could help the community. please? I think with a 80/20 policy can see 20yr daily use ... lets share some data. pretty please?

These lithium cells aren’t difficult to get long life.

Storage (which is 98% of the life of most dirt bikes) - keep the pack at 20-50% and cool.

Riding or charging - keep the cells at the lowest temp possible (which you won’t know). Also, don’t ride the bike AT ALL with the cells extremely cold. Ideal operational temperature is 15C to 50C (60F to 122F).
 

TonyWilliams

User asked to be "deleted"
Likes
172
Location
San Diego, California USA
I doubt the mfg has data on the kind of loading/charging we see. Alta should have incorporated algorithms for predicting capacity loss based on past discharge/charge cycles into the SOC/SOH calculators. Another bit of data that would be nice to have and possibly part of the sold IP.

This is normal stuff. If they are coulomb counting, then a 5.8kWh battery that takes 5.0kWh to fill up from zero is degraded.

Easy.
 

Mark911

Well-known member
Likes
1,123
Location
Corona Ca
Easy at the beginning when the pack can be fully discharged and then charged as the measured coulombs should equal the packs capacity. However, we rarely ever fully discharge our bikes and sometimes we don't wait for a full charge. This, along with self discharge and other factors that coulomb counting can't account for will ultimately throw uncertainty into the count. There are many "enhanced" coulomb counting algorithms intended to close this gap but there's still much room for improvement. My only point is that perhaps Alta's engineers figured out how to do this more accurately than anyone else. A more accurate estimate of the available energy would allow them to push certain operational limits that otherwise would require a more conservative approach. I think that would be worth investing in if it was applicable to your business.
 

TonyWilliams

User asked to be "deleted"
Likes
172
Location
San Diego, California USA
Easy at the beginning when the pack can be fully discharged and then charged as the measured coulombs should equal the packs capacity. However, we rarely ever fully discharge our bikes and sometimes we don't wait for a full charge. This, along with self discharge and other factors that coulomb counting can't account for will ultimately throw uncertainty into the count. There are many "enhanced" coulomb counting algorithms intended to close this gap but there's still much room for improvement. My only point is that perhaps Alta's engineers figured out how to do this more accurately than anyone else. A more accurate estimate of the available energy would allow them to push certain operational limits that otherwise would require a more conservative approach. I think that would be worth investing in if it was applicable to your business.

A. The Alta engineers didn’t make some masterful breakthrough in determining SOC% or degradation

B. The task isn’t horribly difficult:

If the resting cell voltage of 2.5v = 0% and 4.2v = 100% (NOTE: the SOC% to resting voltage relationship is not linear between those two points... this is an exercise), then when charged from 0% to 100%, it should take 5.8kWh (minus whatever small impedance / heating losses).

So, charging from 50% to 100% should take 2.9kWh... hence, something less than that should be considered a capacity loss, or temperature related loss.

It just doesn’t take much programming to calculate from a simple table of published data of:

1. Cell performance at X temperature
2. Measured resting state voltage to % SOC
3. Degradation based on coulomb counting over time

Probably the most basic part of determining degradation is not “chasing the needles” as we call it in aviation. There must be a sanity check. The batteries are presumably assumed to be 100% calculated capacity on day 1, and I’d bet that they are discharged and charged at least once to verify the battery performance and capacity (or maybe not after building a bunch of them, but that is putting a lot of faith in your vendor for the cells).

If, after some period of time, the cells show Y amount of degradation through some rudimentary metrics of cell temperature and coulomb counting, then they can’t be less degraded the next time. Degradation is permanent loss of capacity. There needs to be some logical averaging of data over time, within some threshold of expected performance (which the cell manufacturer will provide in great detail).

I think I would collect time with the cells above 40C, 45C, 50C, 55C, etc, as well as overall time. Each hotter cell temperature gets a higher value for calculated degradation.

The same table could be used with SOC% - time at 80%, 90%, 100%

The sanity check degradation table might look like this:

Time ———————-> T-0 +1 +2 +3 +4

Normal degradation -> 0% 1% 2% 3% 4%

Agrravting factors —-> Add additional calculated degradation for:

Heat ———————-> Time at 70C = 1% additional degradation per unit of time
——————————> Time at 60C = 0.5%
——————————> Time at 50C = 0.2%

High or low SOC%—-> Time at 100% = 1% additional degradation per unit of time
——————————> Time at 90% = 0.5%
——————————> Time at 80% = 0.2%
——-———————-> Time at 70% = 0.1%
——————————> Time at 10% = 0.1%
——————————> Time at 0% = 0.5%


So, the sanity check is a table of expected degradation over time. The primary variables to that table are the values of time spent in extreme heat or high SOC%, but there could be others, like time spent at extremely low SOC% (below 5-10%). That could be compared to actual coulomb counting to arrive at an expected degradation value.

I can tell you that as the cells get seriously degraded, the expected and calculated data might go wonky!
 

Oded

Well-known member
Likes
870
Location
Israel
Compared to the Zero line of e-motorcycles (had one), the soc% is a lot more accurate in the Alta range.
It may be more difficult to estimate than it looks.
 

Alta_mxr

Well-known member
Likes
49
Location
Olympia
Based on the knowledge of the battery to this point. Will it possibly for someone or group in this Community to produce a replacement battery for our bikes?
 

Philip

Administrator
Staff member
Likes
4,218
Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Tony -- Please build us a better battery for Alta v1.0.

Or a battery for Alta v2.0 with a new inverter and motor controller.

Or at least add-on battery packs so that I could buy an SM and ride it 25 miles to work without having to plug it in there.
 

TonyWilliams

User asked to be "deleted"
Likes
172
Location
San Diego, California USA
Based on the knowledge of the battery to this point. Will it possibly for someone or group in this Community to produce a replacement battery for our bikes?

Yes, I’m confident somebody could produce a replace battery. Most of the work would be in reverse engineering things. The actual battery has no magic... commodity cells, programming by actual humans, a box, modules, etc.
 

TonyWilliams

User asked to be "deleted"
Likes
172
Location
San Diego, California USA
Tony -- Please build us a better battery for Alta v1.0.

Or a battery for Alta v2.0 with a new inverter and motor controller.

Or at least add-on battery packs so that I could buy an SM and ride it 25 miles to work without having to plug it in there.

Unless there were an actual source of the original inverters, motor controller, etc, I’m not sure that developing a stand-alone replacement battery is a wise business decision. But, a suite of hardware that all works together seems smart to me.

Add-on batteries are relatively easy, using the saddlebag concept.
 

Arlin Sansome

Member
Likes
16
Hi Guys I am excited to see this thread. I am very close to picking up an MXR. I would much rather put my money into something I build my self.
I am working on getting a couple MXR motors to see how they designed them. I have a couple people who can design a new motor for this Kit Bike!
I can help with the controller. I have developed a few controllers on my own. One of which set a world record with a Nissan leaf motor in a Honda CRX to become the fastest FWD electric car in the 1/4 mile running a 12.6 at 117 mph. That car made over 303hp at the wheels with more to come. I now work with a team an we are developing an open source controller series to offer for things like this. Anyone will be able to download the files and make it themselves. I am not great with CAD but I do use SW, Freecad and Fusion 360. I would not be the guy to design the frame but if I have to I will. My plan is not to make anything the infringes on copyrights but to make something worth riding! Tony as for better cooling of the motor/controller a couple fans mounted to the frame would work fine if needed But I bet the battery is what needs cooling. Guys I know some of the best battery people in the world and if we get this thing far enough I can get then to jump in as well.
-Arlin
 

Philip

Administrator
Staff member
Likes
4,218
Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ
EVERYBODY -- Apparently, Alta never owned the motor's design. They never paid for it.

You can still buy it from a guy in Taiwan. And I am sure they will help with the controller logic for it.

The difficult patent to get around is the motor housing integrated with the frame patent.

Tiveni, or somebody else, will supply the battery packs, if we can piggyback on their existing products with our non-existent production volumes, and if they would want to talk to us.

And @Arlin Sansome will supply the controllers, thank you.

But If we can buy the frame design back from BRP, then continuing to build competitive Altas will be ridiculously easy and fun.
 

Mark911

Well-known member
Likes
1,123
Location
Corona Ca
It's my understanding that the 2170 cells don't quite scale 100% to the 18650s. In other words, the pack won't be quite as power/energy dense everything else being equal.
 

Arlin Sansome

Member
Likes
16
Guys the chemistry is what determines the energy/powerdensity/cycle life etc. 2170 cells are bigger to get the increase in energy so you will have to re-design the pack. But it might be easy. The challenge here is the bonded wire fuses on each cell. Tesla does this with an ultrasonic welded. There is a lot of ways to make a pack. But to make one with safety in mind will not be easy.
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom