Alta Redshift EX bike dead after left charging overnight with key on.

[JP racing]

Hi
Left my 2018 EX charging with the key on and when I came back ~5 hours later it had turned off and would not turn back on

 

[Oded]

Hi
Left my 2018 EX charging with the key on and when I came back ~5 hours later it had turned off and would not turn back on

Had the same thing not long ago with my 2018 EX.
Left the bike for few days with the charger still attached. I did turn the key off when the charge process started (I always do that).
Long story short, replaced the BCU top cover, and bike is back to normal.

Rashid was extremely helpful as always!

 

[JP racing]

Crossed fingers
Managed to wiggle out the 9v but it was fine. Oh well, guess I’ll go ahead and drop the battery since it always seems to be there.

 

[JP racing]

I always just walked off and left the key on while it charges… but I’m a new owner so that is like 10-15 times. Then the bike would be asleep when you get back. Is it normal for the bike to go to sleep if you leave it inactive or after charging? Then key off and back on and “whirr” water pump and blue light. This time, nothing.

Verified the key switch works, I know those rarely break but I had broken the tab off a key and bent it inside this one a couple weeks ago so I checked anyway.

Got as far as dropping the battery and popping the top off. Pretty simple to get that far but the only troubleshooting info I’ve found on this was for an R pack board. I only looked quickly but i didn’t see the offending chip mentioned for this issue in that case which didn’t surprise me as I assume the boards are different. I think @Rashid510 may have helped in that case also.

I’ll have to go back and find links to the resources I used but they were almost exclusively from this forum anyway.

I need to get this working again :-( the KTM is a great fun but it’s a play bike and the lack of engine braking drives me a little nuts. It has the rear brakes from an 85 which with no engine braking on a hand brake is rough. They make a kit for the bigger brake caliper/rotor from the 250s and up an easy cheap fix which should solve that problem.

Plug for @Gtrbo1 who sold me my KTM and is selling a better than showroom one right now in the classifieds.

 

[Rashid510]

I always just walked off and left the key on while it charges… but I’m a new owner so that is like 10-15 times. Then the bike would be asleep when you get back. Is it normal for the bike to go to sleep if you leave it inactive or after charging? Then key off and back on and “whirr” water pump and blue light. This time, nothing.

Verified the key switch works, I know those rarely break but I had broken the tab off a key and bent it inside this one a couple weeks ago so I checked anyway.

Got as far as dropping the battery and popping the top off. Pretty simple to get that far but the only troubleshooting info I’ve found on this was for an R pack board. I only looked quickly but i didn’t see the offending chip mentioned for this issue in that case which didn’t surprise me as I assume the boards are different. I think @Rashid510 may have helped in that case also.

I’ll have to go back and find links to the resources I used but they were almost exclusively from this forum anyway.

I need to get this working again :-( the KTM is a great fun but it’s a play bike and the lack of engine braking drives me a little nuts. It has the rear brakes from an 85 which with no engine braking on a hand brake is rough. They make a kit for the bigger brake caliper/rotor from the 250s and up an easy cheap fix which should solve that problem.

Plug for @Gtrbo1 who sold me my KTM and is selling a better than showroom one right now in the classifieds.

Check your PM.

If I recall the intent was not to leave the bike on while charging. That can potentially leave the BCU in a run condition which can fry the critical 12V components along with the DCDC. This is usually why the bike "dies".

 

[leeo45]

Check your PM.

If I recall the intent was not to leave the bike on while charging. That can potentially leave the BCU in a run condition which can fry the critical 12V components along with the DCDC. This is usually why the bike "dies".

Good to know, and the first time I have seen anything about that. I will update the cheat sheets I have taped to the inside of the charger lids.

All the documentation says things like "You may now remove the key" or "It is now OK to remove the key." once the charging has started. I always pull the key when charging for security reasons, but good to know that we SHOULD turn the key off.

 

[Oded]

Good to know, and the first time I have seen anything about that. I will update the cheat sheets I have taped to the inside of the charger lids.

All the documentation says things like "You may now remove the key" or "It is now OK to remove the key." once the charging has started. I always pull the key when charging for security reasons, but good to know that we SHOULD turn the key off.

I always turn the key off and had the exact same problem. BCU was replaced. Not convinced that the key position is the cause.

 

[Rashid510]

I always turn the key off and had the exact same problem. BCU was replaced. Not convinced that the key position is the cause.

Your correct, there are cases where the bike is turned off completely and the ACM is still being commanded to power on. Ive seen enough cases of the the bike being left on to indicate that potential issue.

 

[F451]

Check your PM.

If I recall the intent was not to leave the bike on while charging. That can potentially leave the BCU in a run condition which can fry the critical 12V components along with the DCDC. This is usually why the bike "dies".

Very interesting, thanks.

I've always left my key "On" during the charging cycle with my '18 MXR. Will start turning the key to "Off" and removing it from now on.

 

[JP racing]

Update: fresh 9v was no help.

 

[JP racing]

Latest: @Rashid510 suggested it might be possible to back feed power into the 12v system. So I attached a 12v power supply via the water pump power line which then allowed me to power up the bike. So probably it is the dc-dc section of the BCU that has failed.

Good news is this is probably a component of the board that can be repaired, bad news is it's not really a repair I can do myself

We did have a brief discussion of bypassing the BCU 12v entirely, at first I thought it was genius, then I thought it was obviously stupid, now I think it is a truly ugly but very possible temporary solution.

I will add some photos and more details later.

 

[F451]

Latest: @Rashid510 suggested it might be possible to back feed power into the 12v system. So I attached a 12v power supply via the water pump power line which then allowed me to power up the bike. So probably it is the dc-dc section of the BCU that has failed.

Good news is this is probably a component of the board that can be repaired, bad news is it's not really a repair I can do myself

We did have a brief discussion of bypassing the BCU 12v entirely, at first I thought it was genius, then I thought it was obviously stupid, now I think it is a truly ugly but very possible temporary solution.

I will add some photos and more details later.

Great diagnostics work guys. Looking forward to seeing more details.

 

[Oded]

Latest: @Rashid510 suggested it might be possible to back feed power into the 12v system. So I attached a 12v power supply via the water pump power line which then allowed me to power up the bike. So probably it is the dc-dc section of the BCU that has failed.

Good news is this is probably a component of the board that can be repaired, bad news is it's not really a repair I can do myself

We did have a brief discussion of bypassing the BCU 12v entirely, at first I thought it was genius, then I thought it was obviously stupid, now I think it is a truly ugly but very possible temporary solution.

I will add some photos and more details later.

This is exactly the process I went in my mind when I had the same issue
Ended up replacing the BCU (thanks Rashid).

I thought about using a 3s lipo pack to turn on the bike, and bypass the DC to DC which is the main failing component from what I gather.

When you powered the bike through the pump wires, everything worked fine including the throttle?

You could place a 3s lipo with an on/off switch. However, letting Rashid repair the BCU is probably a better solution.

 

[JP racing]

This is exactly the process I went in my mind when I had the same issue
Ended up replacing the BCU (thanks Rashid).

I thought about using a 3s lipo pack to turn on the bike, and bypass the DC to DC which is the main failing component from what I gather.

When you powered the bike through the pump wires, everything worked fine including the throttle?

You could place a 3s lipo with an on/off switch. However, letting Rashid repair the BCU is probably a better solution.

I was on HobbyKing.com this morning looking at 10aH 4s batteries

 

[Oded]

Aren't 4s lipos too high voltage? Also, these packs providing (too) high amperage.

 

[JP racing]

I was thinking of 4s LiFePo4 I think that has a nominal voltage of 12.4. Those can be a little tough to source so I was thinking something like This rc battery with a voltage regulator. 3s is a nominal voltage of 11.1, and for some reason I think the Alta might run a bit hot voltage wise.

The whole plan is incredibly suspect. A better plan is to beg @Rashid510 fix the dc section on the board

 

[Oded]

I was thinking of 4s LiFePo4 I think that has a nominal voltage of 12.4. Those can be a little tough to source so I was thinking something like This rc battery with a voltage regulator. 3s is a nominal voltage of 11.1, and for some reason I think the Alta might run a bit hot voltage wise.

The whole plan is incredibly suspect. A better plan is to beg @Rashid510 fix the dc section on the board

I fully agree with the last paragraph

RC lipo packs are able to provide very high currents. It may be too much.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

The AUX connector is 12v. I wonder if this troubleshooting function is part of its existence in the first place.

I think whatever circuit it is connected to dictates what current or amps a given supply puts out. You can attach a tiny LED to your car battery and it is safe even though the car battery can dump 300 amps into the starter motor.

 

[JP racing]

So I played with it a bit more this morning. I fed 12v (actually 13.2) from a backup battery into the running light power feed. Attaching power makes the blue light on top of the battery pack start blinking with the key off or on and it draws 8w. Key on will start the bike and coolant pump and draw goes to about 60w. Hit the starter and it goes live and draw goes up to 65w. The bike appears to run fine and the draw seems constant except for lights. Hi/lo seems the same but brake lights draw 20w and blinkers 10w. With everything on I peaked at 90w.

This is an EX so I would estimate 45-50w draw with no lights or efficient led lighting. So a 10aH battery (120wH) should last a good 2 hours.

The huge caveat is if that external 12v system fails the bike dies instantly, so not really easily workable.

Also I am feeding power INTO the ACM somewhere it normally goes OUT.

If one were to attempt to use an external 12v system a better spot would probably be off the low voltage battery connector. That is where it would normally leave the pack. I’m guessing the 2 fat pins on the circular connector with red and black wires on the other side carry the 12v.

My next step is to drop the battery again and try to see if repair of the DC section on the BCU is an option. Maybe hook up multitool first.

 

[Rashid510]

The AUX connector is 12v. I wonder if this troubleshooting function is part of its existence in the first place.

I think whatever circuit it is connected to dictates what current or amps a given supply puts out. You can attach a tiny LED to your car battery and it is safe even though the car battery can dump 300 amps into the starter motor.

In our troubleshooting paths, we never used that line for troubleshooting. Over time realizing the architecture of the Alta harness, it makes sense that this function works (the former member Mark911 even used this process).

One note I would like to make as @JP racing said, DO NOT use this function as a replacement for the BCU DCDC. There is potential risk of frying the ACM traces. Ive already had to deal with that issue this past summer and would recommend this as a truely a testing option.

Right now im pretty backloged with R pack repairs, but I have slowly had availablity open up for October.