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Bonnell 40hp and 60hp dirt bikes and e-bikes
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HadesOmega
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Looks nice but looks expensive also
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The big bike has some cool pieces and some not so cool i guess.
Pro's:
- The programmable left hand lever is a very nice feature. Clutch, just for panic grip our release downhill, electronic clutches have no wheel pop function. But the programmable rear brake is a great way to get some energy in your battery's on long stretched downhills you will brake on anyways. Also no friction so no wear.
- A real dash, that's a great plus. Even after 1,5 years the Stark phone still kind of sucks. Phone connectivity for all the nice stuff though. Might add a menu to do all the complicated stuff on the bars too for when this gets inoperateble with newer phones.
- Swapable battery is great. But it not being part of the frame does have it loose out of structural strenght. Either compensated for by a heavier frame or accept less performance. But since this is not a ''Full sized'' MX bike this might matter less.
Con's
- It not being a full sized bike rules it out for a lott of people incluiding me.
- The battery is placed high. Loosing one of the benefits the Stark has over ICE competitors.
- Suspension from some small brand. This was a poor choice by Zero and i'm afraid this will be too. My 2013 Zero suspension was obsolete in 2020, let alone now. It will be harder to get parts around the world and suspension tuners will have a hard time figuring it out.
Message to all startup brands that people have to build trust around: GET AS STANDARD AS POSSIBLE. One of the reasons i was willing to gamble on Stark was the used Brembo brakes, KTM sprockets, KYB suspension (wich is a plus on it's own), KTM wheels etc. So if all went south i could at least get the common wear parts.
Pro's:
- The programmable left hand lever is a very nice feature. Clutch, just for panic grip our release downhill, electronic clutches have no wheel pop function. But the programmable rear brake is a great way to get some energy in your battery's on long stretched downhills you will brake on anyways. Also no friction so no wear.
- A real dash, that's a great plus. Even after 1,5 years the Stark phone still kind of sucks. Phone connectivity for all the nice stuff though. Might add a menu to do all the complicated stuff on the bars too for when this gets inoperateble with newer phones.
- Swapable battery is great. But it not being part of the frame does have it loose out of structural strenght. Either compensated for by a heavier frame or accept less performance. But since this is not a ''Full sized'' MX bike this might matter less.
Con's
- It not being a full sized bike rules it out for a lott of people incluiding me.
- The battery is placed high. Loosing one of the benefits the Stark has over ICE competitors.
- Suspension from some small brand. This was a poor choice by Zero and i'm afraid this will be too. My 2013 Zero suspension was obsolete in 2020, let alone now. It will be harder to get parts around the world and suspension tuners will have a hard time figuring it out.
Message to all startup brands that people have to build trust around: GET AS STANDARD AS POSSIBLE. One of the reasons i was willing to gamble on Stark was the used Brembo brakes, KTM sprockets, KYB suspension (wich is a plus on it's own), KTM wheels etc. So if all went south i could at least get the common wear parts.
markhamr
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another play bike
there is still only one mx bike available
THE STARK
there is still only one mx bike available
THE STARK
HadesOmega
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- San Jose
It is using a EBMX controller very similar to the one I have on my Sur Ron Light Bee and WR250R conversion bike. So I'd imagine it incorporates a lot of features in regards to tuning and the regen throttle.
I won't comment about the bicycle, only the motorcycles.
Things I like:
• A controller which is made with EBMX, so maybe it can be bought separately, even if Bonnell can't provide it anymore, and hopefully still work.
• A motor that also looks like one of those that can be bought for conversions. They say that the gearbox is custom, though.
• Linkages for the rear shock, in the 902, at least.
• The fact that they are developing lighter, swappable racing batteries so that there is choice: from the video, it looks like there will be both 4.3 kwh batteries and 6.6 kwh.
• The key shown @6:25 to turn the bike on, provided it won't fall off.
• The fact that it looks like the steering stem is the Stark Varg/KTM type and not the ring nut type.
• The fact that it looks like health data like temperatures are available on the dashboard.
• An aluminum frame: it won't rust.
• The look.
Things I dislike:
• Sirris suspensions: I don't know how good they are, but as far as I know, Sirris is a new company that doesn't sound very unlikely to go bankrupt and whose spare parts are way harder to find than the ones of more known companies like KYB: I agree that such choices should be avoided. Besides, a Ø43 mm fork sounds too thin and therefore flexible for offroad with the weight that you can expect for such bikes. Also, the suspensions of the 805 are custom tuned, but for the 902 are custom made, which according to this logic is even worse. The smaller suspension travel is not convincing either, to me.
• The fact that they are smaller than standard size: I feel too culred up on a Talaria Sting, for example, and I'm not tall. From the video, it looks like if the rider squeezes the bike between his legs while standing, his knees won't touch anything, being above the saddle.
Neutral comments:
• We don't know either a weight estimate, nor a price estimate.
• It looks like they have used forged carbon fiber in the front of the bike.
• I don't see any water cooling for anything.
• The chain of the 805 is unusually in the right side of the bike.
Things I like:
• A controller which is made with EBMX, so maybe it can be bought separately, even if Bonnell can't provide it anymore, and hopefully still work.
• A motor that also looks like one of those that can be bought for conversions. They say that the gearbox is custom, though.
• Linkages for the rear shock, in the 902, at least.
• The fact that they are developing lighter, swappable racing batteries so that there is choice: from the video, it looks like there will be both 4.3 kwh batteries and 6.6 kwh.
• The key shown @6:25 to turn the bike on, provided it won't fall off.
• The fact that it looks like the steering stem is the Stark Varg/KTM type and not the ring nut type.
• The fact that it looks like health data like temperatures are available on the dashboard.
• An aluminum frame: it won't rust.
• The look.
Things I dislike:
• Sirris suspensions: I don't know how good they are, but as far as I know, Sirris is a new company that doesn't sound very unlikely to go bankrupt and whose spare parts are way harder to find than the ones of more known companies like KYB: I agree that such choices should be avoided. Besides, a Ø43 mm fork sounds too thin and therefore flexible for offroad with the weight that you can expect for such bikes. Also, the suspensions of the 805 are custom tuned, but for the 902 are custom made, which according to this logic is even worse. The smaller suspension travel is not convincing either, to me.
• The fact that they are smaller than standard size: I feel too culred up on a Talaria Sting, for example, and I'm not tall. From the video, it looks like if the rider squeezes the bike between his legs while standing, his knees won't touch anything, being above the saddle.
Neutral comments:
• We don't know either a weight estimate, nor a price estimate.
• It looks like they have used forged carbon fiber in the front of the bike.
• I don't see any water cooling for anything.
• The chain of the 805 is unusually in the right side of the bike.
HadesOmega
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From what I hear Sirrus suspensions are very good they are the best of the mini emoto world currently. They are very expensive.
Josh Hill uses them with Surrons and does amazing things with them. Keep in mind that he does amazing things with the stock suspensions, too, though.
Again, for a new model that should be at higher level than a Sting I would prefer Showa/KYB/WP, which are possibly even cheaper for the manufacturer of the bike.
I mean, unless I am missing something and there are reasons to have specific suspensions for electric motorcycles.
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Yeah, having a no-name reduced diameter and reduced travel suspension, despite having swappable racing batteries, will relegate these bikes to non-jumping, woods riding, and a few amateur competitive events. This is a very unfortunate product decision.
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There's nothing wrong with a 43mm strengthwise. You can jump a KTM 890S/Yahama T7 with those. The problem is in the damping and cavitation.
Beta and Aprilia have used 45mm forks to great succes. We also see 43mm in a lott of woods bikes like the Beta Xtrainer, KTM Freeride etc and those bikes get smashed around a lott.
Problem is that for a lott of damping you need a lott of fluid. That's harder to do in 43mm especially since the amount of oil is a square of the radius and so there is far less oil in there. This also means it heats up a lott more and you get into cavitation a lott quicker when doing jumping and fast bumps. Degrading the oil, leading loss of damping and wear.
They may be big in mini bike world and be very good at it, but that doesn't guarantee anything. FastAce is quite good at making suspension for MTB's, but it's the absolute worst i have ever seen on a motorcycle.
To at least get that part ''right enough'' i hope the young E brands just go with proven names, not try to reinvent the wheel with all the risk of your bike being bad just out of stuff that's useable from ICE's and has been proven for decades. The worst thing about my Zero is the FastAce suspension (for wich i can't even get parts).
When i would see this bike at my dealer, it using so different components to anyone else i do skip it for someone else to try it first.
My guess is it will be as heavy as a full sized bike with that huge frame (to keep the loose non structural battery in place). I can forgive E-bikes for being heavy (for all the benefits they offer), but if you build a heavy bike, why don't just go all the way and make it full size? Now both full size riders as people who want a light bike are ruled out of your customer base.
The 805 actually makes sence in the size department though. With a proper suspension setup might get into that ''85cc'' class that's missing now.
Beta and Aprilia have used 45mm forks to great succes. We also see 43mm in a lott of woods bikes like the Beta Xtrainer, KTM Freeride etc and those bikes get smashed around a lott.
Problem is that for a lott of damping you need a lott of fluid. That's harder to do in 43mm especially since the amount of oil is a square of the radius and so there is far less oil in there. This also means it heats up a lott more and you get into cavitation a lott quicker when doing jumping and fast bumps. Degrading the oil, leading loss of damping and wear.
They may be big in mini bike world and be very good at it, but that doesn't guarantee anything. FastAce is quite good at making suspension for MTB's, but it's the absolute worst i have ever seen on a motorcycle.
To at least get that part ''right enough'' i hope the young E brands just go with proven names, not try to reinvent the wheel with all the risk of your bike being bad just out of stuff that's useable from ICE's and has been proven for decades. The worst thing about my Zero is the FastAce suspension (for wich i can't even get parts).
When i would see this bike at my dealer, it using so different components to anyone else i do skip it for someone else to try it first.
My guess is it will be as heavy as a full sized bike with that huge frame (to keep the loose non structural battery in place). I can forgive E-bikes for being heavy (for all the benefits they offer), but if you build a heavy bike, why don't just go all the way and make it full size? Now both full size riders as people who want a light bike are ruled out of your customer base.
The 805 actually makes sence in the size department though. With a proper suspension setup might get into that ''85cc'' class that's missing now.
F451
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I don't get it either. The 3/4 - 7/8 size e-dirt bikes without a full sized offering is my biggest gripe with the whole industry. I think they are missing a significant portion of the market by not offering full sized bikes. And not saying 3/4 - 7/8 sized bikes are bad, on the contrary, they are great for some riders, but without the full sized bikes they're missing out.
It seems like a pretty simple formula, but it must be a lot harder then it looks to produce a quality high performance full sized e-dirt bike with:
high performance motor
quality off the shelf components (suspension, brakes, 21/18" or 21/19" wheels, etc)
good range (the most difficult feature, but its getting better all the time)
weight of 250 lbs / 110 kg (seems to be very difficult to achieve especially with decent range = bigger batteries)
swappable battery (with different size battery options available)
programmable power modes including throttle response, regen, etc.
clutch (maybe - depends on the type of riding and the rider)
simple, cheap, basic, sturdy speedo/odo display
simple, cheap, basic power/throttle response/regen switch setup
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One issue with a full size bike is that is will be compared to the full size ICE bikes. Then you come up to decades of chassis development.
One reason Stark is doing so well is they invested heavy in the chassis department and actually have a good bike, even if it was an ICE it would do very well.
Problem with a lott of start-ups is they lack the funds and the knowhow apart from the Electric drive department.
And 110kg will be hard to hit. Even Stark ended up on 120kg. But ICE Enduro's weigh that as well. Me 2 stroke is 114 fully fueled.
One reason Stark is doing so well is they invested heavy in the chassis department and actually have a good bike, even if it was an ICE it would do very well.
Problem with a lott of start-ups is they lack the funds and the knowhow apart from the Electric drive department.
And 110kg will be hard to hit. Even Stark ended up on 120kg. But ICE Enduro's weigh that as well. Me 2 stroke is 114 fully fueled.
The main reason for which a more conventional fork diameter like 48 mm would sound better to me is that I think that with 43 mm there would be too much flex and therefore too much binding when the inner tube slides inside the outer tube.
And, like you can read here, even at Luxon they think that more flex increases binding. After all, I remember having read this in books and other articles like that over time.
Just think about how visible the flex is when when you are about to tighten the right hand pinch bolts of the front wheel:
here @ 4:09:
Apparently, fork binding is a limitation of telescopic forks even if they are high end with big stenchion diameter and this has been accepted because it's still the best compromise.
If the outer diameter of the stenchion is 43 mm I also guess that its wall won't be thicker than in a typical Ø48 or Ø49 mm fork because of the already reduced room for the components inside it.
This doesn't mean that a perfectly rigid fork would be ideal, just that if high end solutions have much bigger diameters, probably one of the reasons is the reduced binding.
And, like you can read here, even at Luxon they think that more flex increases binding. After all, I remember having read this in books and other articles like that over time.
Just think about how visible the flex is when when you are about to tighten the right hand pinch bolts of the front wheel:
here @ 4:09:
If the outer diameter of the stenchion is 43 mm I also guess that its wall won't be thicker than in a typical Ø48 or Ø49 mm fork because of the already reduced room for the components inside it.
This doesn't mean that a perfectly rigid fork would be ideal, just that if high end solutions have much bigger diameters, probably one of the reasons is the reduced binding.
HadesOmega
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I think they're looking at the market how popular bikes like the Ultra Bee are. The money is where the minis are. It's the same with the Dust bike. People are more interested in smaller bikes.
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New segments is where the fast growth it. In the established segments you have to displace established companies, so any new product has to be either a lot better or a lot cheaper. In new segments you just have to have a product.
markhamr
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Here is my wish list
STARK with a removable battery
Smaller lighter motor/ battey would be a bonus (weight)
The conversion kits are way too expensive here
all up around 30 k for a full build more like 35 with a spare battery
The latest rage here seems to be old blokes on 125 smokers
I am seriously thinking 150 ktm is the race bike i need
Pity i cannot order one with a rear handbrake (but i will fix that)
Relegating the stark varg and surron ultra bee to practise bikes
STARK with a removable battery
Smaller lighter motor/ battey would be a bonus (weight)
The conversion kits are way too expensive here
all up around 30 k for a full build more like 35 with a spare battery
The latest rage here seems to be old blokes on 125 smokers
I am seriously thinking 150 ktm is the race bike i need
Pity i cannot order one with a rear handbrake (but i will fix that)
Relegating the stark varg and surron ultra bee to practise bikes
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- Netherlands
If you consider the KTM 150 also take a look at the Beta 200 Racing. Bit less topend but way smoother over the rest of the gear. A bit like a mini 300. My Girlfriend has one.
Although i'm faster on the Stark on every track i really like that bike.
Although i'm faster on the Stark on every track i really like that bike.
F451
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I miss my 125's and my Husky that I put a 165 kit on. I've wanted a 150 for the longest time. I haven't been riding much lately but I'm planning on putting some trail miles on my Husky FE350 and if I'm not loving it I may sell it and get a 150.
I've heard great things about the Beta 200 Racing and would consider one if a deal dropped in my lap. I remember riding my buddies 2004 KTM 200's back in the day, great bike. One guy got one, then shortly after test rides, 2 of my other buddies picked them up. They ripped on them in all conditions.
I've heard great things about the Beta 200 Racing and would consider one if a deal dropped in my lap. I remember riding my buddies 2004 KTM 200's back in the day, great bike. One guy got one, then shortly after test rides, 2 of my other buddies picked them up. They ripped on them in all conditions.
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Don't need a deal. Full price is well below steal price of a KTM.
