Flux Performance - eMX startup from Europe

[Marko_Flux]

Dear Alta people!

We are Flux Performance, a startup from Europe (Slovenija, the land of Akrapovic and Tim Gajser). We're aiming to make electric dirtbikes and have a different approach. We would like to include you guys early on, because we really value your oppinions on the matter and want to adapt to them as we go. Altas are IMO the best by far today, so your insight is extra valuable.

This is our website: FLUX Performance

I'm a racer myself and basically I was so frustrated with the ebikes coming out in the terrain segment (overpriced moto-bike hybrids, designer experiments etc.) that I built the team and founded the company. I just wanted to see a "normal" dirtbike with an electric engine, no funky design, no reinventing the wheel, no BS specs, just proper perfomance, much like the Alta, but wasn't seeing any.

My thinking is forget about polar bears, build a better motorcycle (performance, maintenance, freedom), period. I want to build stealth fighters, no green "e"s allowed. The planet saving comes as a bonus. I want to make riding possible to more people more often, open new areas, open new tracks, get this sport out of the noise stranglehold and expand again.

So we are now in the process of designing the first 2 prototypes in collaboration with an Italian motorcycle company. These are the ballpark figures:

Full power bike:
-45kW
-112kg
-6kWh, 400V battery
-liquid cooled motor and inverter with geared reduction

Easy bike - still a quality dirtbike with motorcycle components, but more affordable (for beginners, commute, offroad trips, hunting etc.)
-from 4 to 11kW (depending if limited to 50cc or 125cc homologation category)
-3kWh battery
-air cooled motor and inverter, mid-drive (I personally can't see in-wheels, but do you think differently for such applications?)

So some questions for you (some might seem silly, but please humor me):
-what do you think about the proposed prototypes
-do you value more design or performance
-does it being made in EU hold value to you
-what suspension would you like to see on there (for series, no factory stuff obviously)
-is smartphone connectivity important to you and what features would you like to have
-any other comments on the above

I'll be posting updates here, you feedback and comments are always very welcome (also negative ones!) and if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer.

 

[Philip]

Very cool, Marko!

Full power bike:
-45kW (60hp) <-- Best 450's with the same horsepower do not stand a chance! Just make it sustainable power on straightaways, not burst power.
-112kg (247 lbs) <-- Awesome!
-6kWh, 400V battery (a little bigger and better than Alta)
-liquid-cooled motor and inverter with geared reduction (same as Alta)

I like it!

Easy bike - still a quality dirtbike with motorcycle components, but more affordable (for beginners, commute, offroad trips, hunting etc.)
-from 4 to 11kW (depending if limited to 50cc or 125cc homologation category)
-3kWh battery
-air cooled motor and inverter, mid-drive (I personally can't see in-wheels, but do you think differently for such applications?)

Lots of players and wannabe players in this category already. If you can make something outstanding (performance, features, or price), that would bring you pre-orders, investors, cash, brand recognition, and/or an IPO (like Volcon Powersports), then go for it. Else, I would save the time and resources for something that is a marketplace hit.

-do you value more design or performance <-- Novel designs create fans and haters. Performance and race wins sell dirt bikes.
-does it being made in EU hold value to you <-- A lot better than China or India, but not better than Japan, and probably not cheaper than the US.
-what suspension would you like to see on there (for series, no factory stuff obviously) <-- KYB SSS forks and shock, please. Like the Yamana and TM.
-is smartphone connectivity important to you and what features would you like to have <-- Yes. I would like to tweak power, throttle, and traction control maps. But the app does not have to be perfect for the bike to sell, we just need to believe that you will eventually make it functional and useful. Give us over-the-air updates, GPS data logging, a built-in 4G tracker to prevent theft, and full self-driving. Hey, cruise control should be a standard feature on all road-going electric bikes, just add a dash button. And, of course, a Segway self-sustaining wheelie mode!
-any other comments on the above <-- Show us more! And send us a prototype to test! When can we see more?

 

[Fog 25]

There is two things I would change on my Alta. One is ground clearance needs more and for Moto the motor needs a clutch so you can spool up the motor and get that quick pop.

 

[Mark911]

My recommendation would be to wait for the next breakthrough in commercially available battery cells that exceed the latest Li-Ion technology in safety, thermal, power and capacity density. Otherwise, you'll suffer the same limitations that plague the Alta, making an already small market demographic (in the US) even smaller.

 

[Trialsman]

Another thing that would be very useful in tight single track, would be a reverse. With electric, it could all be done with programming, so no additional weight gain for the added benefit.

 

[Philip]

for Moto the motor needs a clutch so you can spool up the motor and get that quick pop.

I am afraid that using the clutch is going to become a dying skill, like double-clutching and rev-matching in race cars. The same things are better and more consistently acheved with electronics, with no heavy flywheels or unreliable clutches.

Perhaps, the throttle can be programmed to become angular velocity sensitive and give you maybe 50% more power for a split second, depending on how fast you open it, if you, say, close it fully and then open it fully, or press a "turbo button" , LOL!

 

[Bloak]

Clutch for whiskey throttle situations would be handy .....

 

[Philip]

Okay, Marko. Give them a fake clutch lever that would kill the motor if pulled and loop out the bike if dropped!

But I would rather have my LHRB there. It can also be used in whiskey throttle situations, although I have not used it this way yet.

 

[VINSANITY]

From my experience with the Alta, my request would be to be able to replace a battery in about 5 minutes using two big bolts.

Imagine a similar configuration to the Alta but two big bolts (like swingarm bolts) that you remove and the battery drops out. Then a fully charged one goes back in. The lower frame would also need to be easy to remove, maybe a structural skid plate out of sheet metal versus the Alta one, again very few fasteners.

 

[Butch]

I wish you all the best. I wish I could come visit your digs. You are invited to visit mine.

 

[Marko_Flux]

Thank you very much for your input!

For the clutch - aside from cost and complexity, remember the pains of overheating, power loss, race springs, replacing disks and all other problems and expenditures it brings. That said, I understand the need for an extra throttle control option. We have an idea for this, we'll see if we can make it happen in the prototype already.

For the battery, when new tech comes out it'll be too late! I believe todays tech can solve 90% of use cases, Alta being a shining example. Our battery should already have 80% more continuous power capability than the MXR one.

For the swapping, do you have a habit of buying a second pack? What is the typical scenario you use it in (is it because the track has no charging, or because the pack overheats if charged between motos etc.)?

We'll post updates here when we have the frame and other things. Keep in mind we collaborate with an existing brand and can't make a new frame from scratch like Alta (yet), but on the positive side, that means geometry, characteristics and ergos will be as they should be.

 

[Philip]

80% more continuous power capability than the MXR one.

Now I have to ask! What did you figure is the continuous power capacity of the Alta MX/EX pack and the Alta MXR/EXR pack?

For the swapping, do you have a habit of buying a second pack? What is the typical scenario you use it in (is it because the track has no charging, or because the pack overheats if charged between motos etc.)?

All of the above. I have a habit of buying a second bike. The tracks usually have no fast/any charging infrastructure, so you have to bring a loud gas generator, a huge Powerwall, or maybe an EV with a 240V power outlet. And the charging rate is often limited on warm batteries between motos, especially on hot days.

 

[rayivers]

Your prototypes sound excellent, and I hope all goes well for you and Flux.

Some of these have been mentioned already, but in a full-power bike I'd like to be able to swap your 3kWh and 6kWh batteries easily (I'd buy both, I prefer lighter weight and imo a spare battery is a good idea), adjustable regen and throttle maps if possible, Ohlins and/or SSS suspension, and adjustable ergonomics (pegs, bar location, etc.). Since you mentioned them, I think a very small additional front hub motor would be a huge advantage in Endurocross / Erzberg type events (where your product's seen by the world), and technical trail riding too.

 

[Motophyllic]

Reverse is so important, I can’t express it enough. Mobile app for mapping would be great, please not so many plastic inserts that strip out on the plastics, and no hollow void under the seat that fills with water.

 

[Butch]

I just cross pollinated, er, posted on BARF:

The Electric Motorcycle Thread - Page 110 - BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum

The Electric Motorcycle Thread General

www.bayarearidersforum.com

 

[testus191]

I'm curious how you intend on having a pack that has 11% more energy and a bike with over 20% more power, but 6% lighter than an Alta? I've seen far too many attempts at this over the last few years to not be very skeptical of these claims. Maybe you have some tricks up your sleeve and I hope it works out, that would be amazing for this community. However, as Mark mentioned above, I think we are really hung up until the next battery/power source breakthrough. $.02

 

[Philip]

I think we are really hung up until the next battery/power source breakthrough. $.02

We are not hang up. We are riding our bikes and we are enjoying them very much.

Riders who expect longer than two hours from their batteries should not be poo-pooing the bike and the current battery technology. For those of us who ride at motocross tracks, 30-40 minutes at full power is plenty. And 2 hours of trail riding is also long enough for me.

Nobody is making anything similar to the Alta that can be bought new. So this is what needs to be solved first. When the battery technology improves, then we will reap the additional benefits.

 

[Matt]

We are not hang up. We are riding our bikes and we are enjoying them very much.

Riders sho expect longer than two hours from their batteries should not be poo-pooing the bike and the current battery technology. For those of us who ride at motocross tracks, 30-40 minutes at full power is plenty. And 2 hours of trail riding is also long enough for me.

Nobody is making anything similar to the Alta that can be bought new. So this is what needs to be solved first. When the battery technology improves, then we will reap the additional benefits.

I wish I could get 2 hrs of trail riding

 

[Philip]

I wish I could get 2 hrs of trail riding

I saw you ride. Yoiu ride incorrectly! You think you are on a motocross track that has trees growing on it. Slow down and smell the roses/pines!

 

[Matt]

I saw you ride. Yoiu ride incorrectly! You think you are on a motocross track that has trees growing on it. Slow down and smell the roses/pines!

The Alta just feels so much like a super fast mountainbike I can't help but want to go fast .