Flux Performance - eMX startup from Europe


Mark911

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Riders who expect longer than two hours from their batteries should not be poo-pooing the bike and the current battery technology. For those of use who ride at motocross tracks, 30-40 minutes at full power is plenty. And 2 hours of trail riding is also long enough for me.
I agree, us vet guys can get a full moto at what we consider "full power". However, when any builder states or implies that their bike (or planned bike) is/will be competitive with the current crop of MX gas bikes without qualification (like saying race competitive for most vets and C/B riders under average track conditions like the Alta) I gotta call BS because it just isn't possible right now. For example, a stock KTM250SX can race and be competitive at every level and at any MX/SX track in America. An electric equivalent is years away. That's not to say it couldn't be done today, however. With an unlimited budget and laboratory level battery technology it's probably possible, but who's got that kind of resources and desire, maybe Musk or Bezos.

To be fair, the FLUX guy did stipitate "Performance much like the Alta" so if that's the goal I don't see why it can't be done again. My Yamaha 125 conversion came close, was about 245Lbs and had liquid cooled motor, inverter and battery pack. Too bad the DHX Hawk motor decided to fail 8 months ago as I'm still waiting on the replacement.

IMG_4627.JPG
 

Mark911

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Err.... the Alta is faster than the stock KTM250SX at every level and on most tracks.
That wasn't my point . . . . . which was that a stock KTM (and all the other major mfg MX bikes for that matter) can go thirty minutes plus two laps with National level caliber rider on a National caliber track in any weather condition and be relatively competitive. An Alta can't even make 4 laps at my local MX track with a fast A rider on a hot day without thermal limiting problems. It doesn't matter how fast it is (if you're a really good rider) if it can't make a full race at full power.

So to be very clear, a commercially available electric equivalent (one that can go thirty minutes plus two laps with National level caliber rider on a National caliber track in any weather condition and be relatively competitive) is still years away.
 

Philip

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An Alta can't even make 4 laps at my local MX track with a fast A rider on a hot day without thermal limiting problems.
The MX model, yes. I never understood why you decided to stick with an MX and never upgraded to an MXR. All your riding and projects are for motocross, and the MXR is clearly a better bike for that.

So to be very clear, a commercially available electric equivalent (one that can go thirty minutes plus two laps with National level caliber rider on a National caliber track in any weather condition and be relatively competitive) is still years away.
That I would agree with.
 

Mark911

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The MX model, yes. I never understood why you decided to stick with an MX and never upgraded to an MXR. All your riding and projects are for motocross, and the MXR is clearly a better bike for that.


That I would agree with.

I can assure you, with a Pro or fast A rider the MXR won't make a full race. Maybe some "pretty quick" riders can make a moto under ideal circumstances (cold pack, mild day, hard pack track, short moto, etc), but that's about it. If any Pros out in Alta land can send evidence to the contrary I'll retract my comments. Again, I'm talking typical motocross only. I'm too slow to even push my A packs into thermal, so an MXR wouldn't make any difference, LOL.
 

Matt

E-Rider
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Rochester, New York
I have run down my MXR full charge on a private track in just about 30 minutes. Was a really loamy fast track and I was in map 4 wide open for a lot of it even if I wasn't moving supper fast there was a decent amount of wheel spin. Super fun day. I am most definitely not a pro or A ridder also. But if I can do it I would guess others faster than me could more easily. I didn't hit thermal limit either because it was like 45° and wet. I haven't actually had my bike thermal limit before. Most of the times it is wet and cold where I am though except in the middle of summer but I don't normally do a long moto in the middle of summer because I myself get too hot lol. Normally my long Motos come late in the season like now or early November.
 

C5tor

Chief Comedic Instigator
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SF Bay Area, CA
Bryan’s remarks above brought up a question. Has anyone talked to AJ Catanzaro about swapping his EXR maps to MXR ones? I was curious if he might be having any issues making jumps in lower maps. Or maybe he just leaves it in map 4. He was talking in his latest vlog about picking up a second Alta so they could both ride together and have a conversation.
 

Matt

E-Rider
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Location
Rochester, New York
Bryan’s remarks above brought up a question. Has anyone talked to AJ Catanzaro about swapping his EXR maps to MXR ones? I was curious if he might be having any issues making jumps in lower maps. Or maybe he just leaves it in map 4. He was talking in his latest vlog about picking up a second Alta so they could both ride together and have a conversation.
I have been talking with him about it. Hopfully will get down there to update it to MXR firmware at some point in the near future
 

VINSANITY

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Texas
Interesting in my very brief autograph session with Roger DeCoster I made a plug for electric bikes and his comment mirrored Marks. At the pro level they (KTM) tried the Alta and got 15 minutes so in their analysis current technology is not ready for top level at this time. He said something like there is probably a segment where electric makes sense.

Like all new technology there will be a period of time with various breakthroughs but we have to admit electric are the equivalent of 1940’s when motorcycles were primitive, heavy, broke a lot.

At the evening with the champions thing they showed various vintages of MX bike evolution and it was the mid to late 1980’s when riders stopped having to “preserve” the bike and could finally ride them as hard and as long as they could. So it will be a while for electric to become equivalent and then eventually superior to ICE.
 
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Austria/Europe
I think, first of all we has to know, MX Tracks in EU and US are totaly different! A normal track in the EU is about 1-1,2 km (0,6-1miles) and the highest gear is the 4 of 5...
Because the FIM Rulebook say, max
average speed is 60kph (37,2mph) on a MX Race track....
And your tracks are much faster...
(like Glen Helen Raceway... wow!)
 

Marko_Flux

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Slovenija
I agree, us vet guys can get a full moto at what we consider "full power". However, when any builder states or implies that their bike (or planned bike) is/will be competitive with the current crop of MX gas bikes without qualification (like saying race competitive for most vets and C/B riders under average track conditions like the Alta) I gotta call BS because it just isn't possible right now. For example, a stock KTM250SX can race and be competitive at every level and at any MX/SX track in America. An electric equivalent is years away. That's not to say it couldn't be done today, however. With an unlimited budget and laboratory level battery technology it's probably possible, but who's got that kind of resources and desire, maybe Musk or Bezos.

To be fair, the FLUX guy did stipitate "Performance much like the Alta" so if that's the goal I don't see why it can't be done again. My Yamaha 125 conversion came close, was about 245Lbs and had liquid cooled motor, inverter and battery pack. Too bad the DHX Hawk motor decided to fail 8 months ago as I'm still waiting on the replacement.
Thats a very nice looking bike, congrats! We also were looking at the Hawks, but finally went another way fortunately.
We start at this point with the prototype. As others said, Alta is miles ahead of anything available today (look at Surron, Kalk, Freeride-E), so an MVP coming close is already a big deal. Then if we'll have successful funding rounds, the goal is to build a frame from scratch, like Alta did, but learning from their limitations and using newer tech, that is the dream.

As Gunter mentioned, EU tracks are mostly quite slower than USA. Also we have much more regulatory issues with ICE, a sad example is Belgium, who lost 95% of its tracks in 30 years, even the iconic Lommel is in danger. So Europe might be an even more fertile ground for an eMX!

As for why the big dogs don't do it, you never know the truth. It might really be the tech or it might be the spare parts & servicing revenue, engine investments, patents and infrastructure, staff know-how etc. Turning a big ship isn't easy.

I'd like to thank everyone again for your opinions and remarks!
 

useless

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San Francisco, CA
@Marko_Flux Thanks for sharing about your project!

I think being able to tune regen/throttle map by the user would be super useful. I really wish the Alta came with a "range mode" where regen braking was set to max, and throttle response was low (think #1 throttle with #4 regen on the Alta). I also would really like some kind of adjustable traction control, and ABS. I am not a MXer though, I mostly just ride my SM on the road, so ABS might not be of interest to your intended customers.
 

privateer703

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Altoona, PA
After hearing that @snydes saw no noticeable gain in charge after coming down pikes peak I don't see any reason to have it at all. I do like it when I'm coming down steep rocky terrain, it does help, but with the left hand rear brake I've got more than enough control to handle it myself. But the lack of being able to just let it coast in neutral is such a pain.
 

Mark911

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1,123
Location
Corona Ca
I think, first of all we has to know, MX Tracks in EU and US are totaly different! A normal track in the EU is about 1-1,2 km (0,6-1miles) and the highest gear is the 4 of 5...
Because the FIM Rulebook say, max
average speed is 60kph (37,2mph) on a MX Race track....
And your tracks are much faster...
(like Glen Helen Raceway... wow!)
Does that apply to MXGP as well? I watch every race and it sure looks like those tracks are just as fast if not faster than the typical "National" track here in the states. The lack of grooming might slow things down a bit for the average MXGP rider but the top guys are putting in lap times sometimes faster than time qualification on the last couple laps of the second motos. The skill level and competition at that level (MX2 and MXGP) is simply amazing to watch.
 

Matt

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Location
Rochester, New York
After hearing that @snydes saw no noticeable gain in charge after coming down pikes peak I don't see any reason to have it at all. I do like it when I'm coming down steep rocky terrain, it does help, but with the left hand rear brake I've got more than enough control to handle it myself. But the lack of being able to just let it coast in neutral is such a pain.
A sneaky coasting method I have used is to just hit the kill switch. I typically hit it, hit it back and have my thumb on the start button so I don't have much delay when turning it back on
 

Mark911

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Corona Ca
I see a couple of other problems that I feel impacted Alta's sales. First, they tried to take a bike with significant range limitations but which was marginally acceptable for some closed track applications like MX and repackage it as a SM or enduro bike, both applications where the typical expectation is something with much greater mileage/range. The formula just doesn't work and the non-recurring/recurring engineering and manufacturing costs to support the additional models must have weighed heavy on them. I think it's safe to say that the only narrowly acceptable RACE application was/is MX or other short race format at the intermediate/vet level. I know there are some exceptions, but I'm talking as a whole.

I'm not sure how it is in Europe, but here in the states if you want some decent sale numbers (to leverage larger/cheaper buys of quality components like Ohlin suspension, Kite hubs, DID rims, etc), you'll need to appeal to more than the vet demographic. However, even the beginner local race crowd has visions of being the next (insert name of you're favorite Pro rider here). They know if that's the goal you gotta be on one of the big name bikes to get any kind of support or attention. Plus, there's not even a class for "electric" approved by the AMA yet, at least not at the full sized bike level. So what's the motivation to buy a bike that's most likely the most expensive option, one you'll find it hard to get any help (financial/parts), and one you can't race anyway? And that's before you add the cost of a good (ie quiet, so you don't piss off everyone around your pits) generator.

It's the chicken before the egg syndrome. Someone needs to first make a bike that'll appeal to the younger, up and coming generation so that the AMA can no longer ignore the growing demand for an electric "race classification or classifications". But if it can't be raced, how it that going to be appealing?

The FIM is way ahead of the AMA in this respect, but we all know how political (insert, where's the money) these organizations can get, so I not very optimistic at this point.

Bottom line, beside the technology limitations and safety issues there's tremendous headwinds bearing on the "off road competition" segment of the EV market right now. On the other hand, there's significant tailwinds regarding the "street legal" segment. If I was an investor, that's where I'd be putting my money.
 

Philip

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Lake Havasu City, AZ
For the swapping, do you have a habit of buying a second pack? What is the typical scenario you use it in (is it because the track has no charging, or because the pack overheats if charged between motos etc.)?
I just realized that the battery removal and installation, even on our current Altas, could have been made a lot more quick swap-friendly.

Right now you have to remove 6 dirty and hidden bolts from underneath the bike, then 5 visible and cleaner bolts from the sides of the bike. Then 2 connectors, and then the battery can be lifted and removed. If all the bolts were on the sides of the bike, then swapping the battery at the track could be made a lot easier, possibly a 5-minute 1-person job with an electric impact gun.
 

Marko_Flux

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Slovenija
Dear electric dirt riders! Let me change up the conversation a bit :cool:

Primo4 (Large).png

It's my great pleasure to announce the Flux Primo, our first prototype!
We shaped this bike and its features also thanks to your feedback and experience.

We're launching our new website, where you can read all about it, sign up for a chance of test riding and place an early pre-order!
FLUX Motorcycles – A new era for off-road riders

Here is the FAQ for some questions you might have off the bat: FAQ – FLUX Motorcycles

What do you think?

I thank you in advance for signing up and/or placing a reservation. This is a key indicator for us to prove people want this!
Please also share this anywhere you see fit, if you can.

We also made a Reddit community where you can share thoughts, comments, questions, ideas, whatever you wish: r/FluxMoto

Together we will build the future!
 
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