Media Review Media Week in Spain - Electric Cycle Rider

[Smerwin43]

Sounds like everyone was scared to admit how good it was, best in corners by far and endless power. History before our eyes, can I kiss their behinds any harder? Lol.

This is the most comprehensive review I’ve seen so far. Super excited, and that year wait time has turned into 6 months (for me) in no time it seems. Couldn’t be any more excited!

 

[blbills]

Good one. Excited to hear his follow-on comments on range. What he did say is that is has more range than the Alta which is great. I could only get about 35 miles of range on my Alta kinda taking it easy. I hope I can extend that to 50 with this one...

 

[Smerwin43]

Good one. Excited to hear his follow-on comments on range. What he did say is that is has more range than the Alta which is great. I could only get about 35 miles of range on my Alta kinda taking it easy. I hope I can extend that to 50 with this one...

Yeah, I’m really surprised they weren’t able to do any extended range tests. Not what I would have expected from stark. Not too worrying anyways, the stark will be my first leap into the electric future.

The only thing slightly worrying for me in terms of a timeframe is software development but by the time mine is delivered I’m sure they’ll have it all ironed out. They can only go up from here! Hopefully some more concrete range and times coming soon.

 

[fsfs]

Yeah, I’m really surprised they weren’t able to do any extended range tests. Not what I would have expected from stark. Not too worrying anyways, the stark will be my first leap into the electric future.

The only thing slightly worrying for me in terms of a timeframe is software development but by the time mine is delivered I’m sure they’ll have it all ironed out. They can only go up from here! Hopefully some more concrete range and times coming soon.

The software is behind the hardware (because in this case you need the hardware to write the software). To really push the bike -- especially with the media riding it -- the software needs to be more mature. The last thing you want to do is change the software from day to day while the press are riding it. We had to be conservative - 60hp only, etc.

I wouldn't worry about the software. Keep in mind that the software can be updated without taking it to a dealer (bike has WiFi and bluetooth).

As for the range, SoC (state of charge) displayed on the screen is accurate. ECR's observations seem quite good. You can also listen to Sleeter's podcast for some more insight. Also, check enduro21's video.

 

[Smerwin43]

Info

Thank you, swap mentioned the batteries weren’t production spec in his podcast as well so I can totally understand no range tests yet. Seems like it just keeps getting better!

 

[Jayfox911]

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t see @TCMB371 in the videos.

 

[Smerwin43]

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t see @TCMB371 in the videos.

He will be doing a test later, after his wedding per Motocross Action Magazines test ride on his alta. Congrats @TCMB371 !

 

[Philip]

A 3.3 kWh charger at 220-240V is only 14A. Alta can charge a bit faster at 16-18A.

 

[fsfs]

A 3.3 kWh charger at 220-240V is only 14A. Alta can charge a bit faster at 16-18A.

The charger is rated 3.3kW _output_ power. I would expect low 90s efficiency so it works out to about 16A input which is the current rating for the common european plug.

 

[Marko_Flux]

The charger is rated 3.3kW _output_ power. I would expect low 90s efficiency so it works out to about 16A input which is the current rating for the common european plug.

What's the reason for not letting anyone ride more than 10min at a time, to verify the range claims?

 

[Johnny Depp]

What's the reason for not letting anyone ride more than 10min at a time, to verify the range claims?

Just a guess, but with only 5 pre production prototypes available, ruining even 1 by running it too low is a problem. Being conservative.

 

[synics]

Just a guess, but with only 5 pre production prototypes available, ruining even 1 by running it too low is a problem. Being conservative.

If running it too low could ruin it then that seems to be a huge problem in itself. : )

 

[Philip]

The charger is rated 3.3kW _output_ power. I would expect low 90s efficiency so it works out to about 16A input which is the current rating for the common european plug.

Got it. Then this is the same power and charge rate as the Alta's "Rapid" charger. Cool!
My motovan's 4 kW inverter would be able to handle this perfectly!

 

[Johnny Depp]

If running it too low could ruin it then that seems to be a huge problem in itself. : )

in the Rust review, his bike slowed down at 17% battery, where they had been set. It was mentioned that 10% is the lowest it should ever go. The software is there to protect the battery, just like every E car or hybrid on the road.

 

[Marko_Flux]

Just a guess, but with only 5 pre production prototypes available, ruining even 1 by running it too low is a problem. Being conservative.

The BMS protecting undervoltage is one of its most basic functions. Even so, if that unlikely event would occur and one batpack would be ruined and we assume cells are glued, so the whole pack with housing is trashed - it would incur a hypothetical 5.000€ of damage, which is not much just in the context of the media event.
So again, why not let a couple of fast journalists at least have a go until it slows down and prove the claims, silence all the doubters?

 

[C5tor]

The best thing I saw Stark do with its media day was provide other manufacturers’ 450 bikes for back-to-back comparisons. That was a ballsy move, and one that I don’t think anyone else would have the cajones to try. Well played, Stark.

 

[Bionicman]

IMO one of the best reviews due to his E experience

 

[Matt]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that stark is going to release range data the right way and have a variety of skill level and weight riders ride on a variety of riding terrain and then release this data in a way that will accurately convey real world range. This will allow people to estimate what their range will be based on weight, rider ability, and the type of terrain. I also could forsee part of the app/software allowing you to input characteristics of the conditions you are ridding as well as a rider profile which could include weight and rider speed/aggression to more accurately depict SOC while riding. This could use a variety of additional inputs such as gps location, saved data from previous rides, weather data, engine map data and so on to form an algorithm that estimates how much range you have left. I think the reason they didn't want any range related testing happening was because they have a better solution to accurately depict range and don't want to take away from that with preliminary range estimates from these reviews.

 

[Philip]

I am going to go out on a limb and say that stark is going to release range data the right way and have a variety of skill level and weight riders ride on a variety of riding terrain and then release this data in a way that will accurately convey real world range. This will allow people to estimate what their range will be based on weight, rider ability, and the type of terrain. I also could forsee part of the app/software allowing you to input characteristics of the conditions you are ridding as well as a rider profile which could include weight and rider speed/aggression to more accurately depict SOC while riding. This could use a variety of additional inputs such as gps location, saved data from previous rides, weather data, engine map data and so on to form an algorithm that estimates how much range you have left. I think the reason they didn't want any range related testing happening was because they have a better solution to accurately depict range and don't want to take away from that with preliminary range estimates from these reviews.

What you are describing here in such a great detail, Matt, is exactly what Tesla has been working on. So, 14 years after they have sold their first car, they are still working on improving this algorithm based exactly on the inputs that you are describing. And that is so that folks never "ran out of gas" before they reach home or a Tesla supercharger station.

I am going to say that Stark Future has a greater challenge before them than Tesla. These bikes do not ride on paves roads of a known slope and known rolling resistance. The rider's weight and aerodynamic drag are huge variables. There is no telling how a rain might affect the range. The head/tail wind that meteorologists are reporting may or may not be blocked by trees. And, the biggest challenge, is that Stark has not finished improving their own traction control map for maximizing range. And they may never be finished fine-tuning and improving that map!

So... I am very hopefull that the Stark Varg will have a good riding range. But I am not hopeful that it could be summarized in one accurate number of miles per charge.

That is unless all e-bike manufacturers suddenly agree to follow some EPA, or similar, industry standard of how a fuel economy or maximum range test should be run. Even then... "your mileage may vary".

 

[fsfs]

What you are describing here in such a great detail, Matt, is exactly what Tesla has been working on. So, 14 years after they have sold their first car, they are still working on improving this algorithm based exactly on the inputs that you are describing. And that is so that folks never "ran out of gas" before they reach home or a Tesla supercharger station.

I am going to say that Stark Future has a greater challenge before them than Tesla. These bikes do not ride on paves roads of a known slope and known rolling resistance. The rider's weight and aerodynamic drag are huge variables. There is no telling how a rain might affect the range. The head/tail wind that meteorologists are reporting may or may not be blocked by trees. And, the biggest challenge, is that Stark has not finished improving their own traction control map for maximizing range. And they may never be finished fine-tuning and improving that map!

So... I am very hopefull that the Stark Varg will have a good riding range. But I am not hopeful that it could be summarized in one accurate number of miles per charge.

That is unless all e-bike manufacturers suddenly agree to follow some EPA, or similar, industry standard of how a fuel economy or maximum range test should be run. Even then... "your mileage may vary".

The software is indeed challenging. It is challenging in ways that an electric car is not. Let's just take traction control as an example. You cannot use speed of the non-driven wheel. You want to avoid if/then/else paths in the code because they correspond to a step change in behavior depending upon which path is taken -- but these are often difficult to avoid. People comment about how effective panic rev in the air is. We want to keep that effectiveness, but how keep that while controlling wheel spin on the ground. Remember that we don't want a binary in air or on ground decision, as this will result in a step change in throttle response on takeoff and landing. When the rubber is on the asphalt it is much easier. MX is doable and we have ideas on how to do it, but it will take time and testing.

As for predicted range on dirt that is a whole new can of worms. What I can say is this. As the riders learned the bike they became faster and used less energy. Turns like a 125 2T -- carry your speed. Most riders de-tuned to 90% _torque_ (not power as stated in most of the videos) -- more speed and less energy at the same time.

We learned many things during the media event. One is that fine grained control of max torque without traction control works pretty well but must be set for the track and conditions. I think setting up 5 maps on the bike where the only difference is perhaps a 4% torque limit difference will work quite well in practice -- simple but effective. Here we have a clear advantage over the Alta.

In any case, we still have much to learn. We cannot simply read how to do it. There is no generic "canned" solution to it yet. We will have to figure it out ourselves. I think that is great fun.