New ALTA Alternative -Stark VARG - From Europe

[fsfs]

Ah, Interesting. I have no first hand knowledge of MOQ, etc. I was thinking more simply and from the perspective that if cells are hard to acquire and a manufacturer obtains a specific number of them, one can build a lot more bikes from a specific quantity of cells compared to the number of cars/trucks from the same quantity.

A company ran by some high level clout from EU? Time to get the popcorn ready.....Good luck trying to get infront of the cell game.

This project is 2 years up to this point. Do you think they started thinking about this yesterday?

 

[Rashid510]

This project is 2 years up to this point. Do you think they started thinking about this yesterday?

Alta was running for 5 years before SOP in 2017-2018. Even with that length of time we were slammed by Panasonic and Murata. Currently 18650s/21700s are the hotttest commodity in the EV space. Cells are picked up before the factories are minting the jelly rolls. If they can score cells in this era that are fresh have no issues qualitywise, there probably paying tooth and nail per cell and still having a year plus lead time.

 

[fsfs]

Alta was running for 5 years before SOP in 2017-2018. Even with that length of time we were slammed by Panasonic and Murata. Currently 18650s/21700s are the hotttest commodity in the EV space. Cells are picked up before the factories are minting the jelly rolls. If they can score cells in this era that are fresh have no issues qualitywise, there probably paying tooth and nail per cell and still having a year plus lead time.

So you are saying that Stark won't be delivering motorcycles in any significant quantity?

 

[Chadx]

There are 400 cells per bike

Ah yes. Right you are. I was only looking at half the case! Ha. Original post updated

 

[Rashid510]

So you are saying that Stark won't be delivering motorcycles in any significant quantity?

Who knows. Right now the supply chain constraints dont look great though they seem to "calm down" in mid 22..unless there ahead. Secondly behind cells are PCBAs. If you cant source your ICs...thats another ding.

 

[FrancoLizard]

@Rashid510 - When manufacturers order components like cells, plastics, etc., what are the payment terms like? Are they purchased on credit, paid in advance, or what? I've always wondered how this works with a company that might have a higher risk of failure.

 

[fsfs]

Looks like the same exact fukuta motor as in our altas!

No, it is not the motor in the Alta

 

[enjoythesilenc]

I'm sure it a more advanced, higher output model but I'll bet the $100 Stark deposit that its made by Fukuta and/or was arrived at upon dissecting an Alta. The "designed from the ground up" claim is on shaky ground. The conjoined motor/ inverter structure in a cast, watercooled unit is also Alta 2.0.

I'm sure this bike will be a step forward and I hope it is. Alta owners have had to withstand the microscope of outside critics and so should Stark. It just so happens that Alta owners have already attended this rodeo and therefore are a bit attuned to what might be considered hype.

Can we hear what the benefits of a carbon wrapped rotor are? I'm assuming you can spin it faster without it exploding. Does this allow you more flexibilty in what gearing reduction is required? Obviously, higher rpm results in a higher top speed possible. Better heat tolerance, too?

 

[fsfs]

View attachment 8061View attachment 8062

I'm sure it a more advanced, higher output model but I'll bet the $100 Stark deposit that its made by Fukuta and/or was arrived at upon dissecting an Alta. The "designed from the ground up" claim is on shaky ground. The conjoined motor/ inverter structure in a cast, watercooled unit is also Alta 2.0.

I'm sure this bike will be a step forward and I hope it is. Alta owners have had to withstand the microscope of outside critics and so should Stark. It just so happens that Alta owners have already attended this rodeo and therefore are a bit attuned to what might be considered hype.

Can we hear what the benefits of a carbon wrapped rotor are? I'm assuming you can spin it faster without it exploding. Does this allow you more flexibilty in what gearing reduction is required? Obviously, higher rpm results in a higher top speed possible. Better heat tolerance, too?

It is not a fukata. It was not designed by "dissecting" a fukata. I suppose you came to this conclusion by looking at the cooling channels; your conclusion is wrong. Motor and inverter design is in house and closely coordinated.

The motor is bigger and heavier (9kg), but is more efficient under load. Being more efficient is just like adding cells, so that offsets the weight. Also, the inverter is both higher power and lighter (which also offsets the added motor weight).

 

[Butch]

It is not a fukata. It was not designed by "dissecting" a fukata. I suppose you came to this conclusion by looking at the cooling channels; your conclusion is wrong. Motor and inverter design is in house and closely coordinated.

The motor is bigger and heavier (9kg), but is more efficient under load. Being more efficient is just like adding cells, so that offsets the weight. Also, the inverter is both higher power and lighter (which also offsets the added motor weight).

Thanks dude.
Where is HRV?

 

[fsfs]

Thanks dude.
Where is HRV?

You are welcome.

HRV = Hrvatska = Croatia

 

[Mark911]

You are correct. The carbon wrap is to prevent the rotor magnets from flying off at high rpm. However, the Alta uses a carbon wrapped rotor too. The wrap implies that the rotor is a surface mount design which has certain advantage and disadvantages over imbedded designs.

 

[Philip]

It is not a fukata. It was not designed by "dissecting" a fukata. I suppose you came to this conclusion by looking at the cooling channels; your conclusion is wrong. Motor and inverter design is in house and closely coordinated.

The motor is bigger and heavier (9kg), but is more efficient under load. Being more efficient is just like adding cells, so that offsets the weight. Also, the inverter is both higher power and lighter (which also offsets the added motor weight).

Fsfs, you appear to have some inside knowledge of the engineering being the Varg. Are you somehow connected to the company? I am also curious what else you could tell us.

 

[Philip]

@Rashid510 - When manufacturers order components like cells, plastics, etc., what are the payment terms like? Are they purchased on credit, paid in advance, or what? I've always wondered how this works with a company that might have a higher risk of failure.

It appears that Alta negotiated as much as they could to pay as little as they could up front. When they went under, many of the suppliers were left with huge accounts receivable. This made it extremely difficult to whoever wanted to buy the company to actually restart the operations. They would have had to pay all the old unpaid Alta's bills.

 

[Rashid510]

It appears that Alta negotiated as much as they could to pay as little as they could up front. When they went under, many of the suppliers were left with huge accounts receivable. This made it extremely difficult to whoever wanted to buy the company to actually restart the operations. They would have had to pay all the old unpaid Alta's bills.

Negotiations are critical. Theres other reasons for the un-restart but thats old news now.

 

[fsfs]

Fsfs, you appear to have some inside knowledge of the engineering being the Varg. Are you somehow connected to the company? I am also curious what else you could tell us.

I am the most senior guy on the team that designed the motor, inverter, battery.

I won't tell anything that cannot be gleaned from the 16 minute video (battery layout shown in CAD as well as actual battery case shown, motor shown and stated to be 9kg).
From this it is obvious that it is not the Alta motor (somebody can put it on a scale). It is also obvious that significant thought was put into battery cooling as well as weight distribution.

The only other thing I will say is that we are all happy to be working on this project and are highly motivated to bring it to production.

 

[UKLee]

FsFs Maybe you can help.....
I asked, does this motorcycle have Quick change battery and what is the price of a spare battery.

Reply was, The Stark VARG is not designed to swap batteries.

Then I see the video yesterday from Anton Wass and he says, Yes, It will be relatively simple (to change the battery) but the battery still weighs 32kg

So I e mail stark again and they now say.........
You can swap it making some changes in the plastics, in less than 30 seconds. but the bike is not designed for that from the factory.



Please if you have any questions, comments or concerns during the process, let us know.

Thank you.



Kind Regards.

Mike Lorenzo.

Customer Service Manager

So is it possible? Is it safe to swap a flat battery with a fully charged one out in the field? Thinking are the power leads plug in not bolt on terminals, or maybe it is like the freeride e and makes the connection as the battery is dropped in to place?

 

[fsfs]

FsFs Maybe you can help.....
I asked, does this motorcycle have Quick change battery and what is the price of a spare battery.

Reply was, The Stark VARG is not designed to swap batteries.

Then I see the video yesterday from Anton Wass and he says, Yes, It will be relatively simple (to change the battery) but the battery still weighs 32kg

So I e mail stark again and they now say.........
You can swap it making some changes in the plastics, in less than 30 seconds. but the bike is not designed for that from the factory.



Please if you have any questions, comments or concerns during the process, let us know.

Thank you.



Kind Regards.

Mike Lorenzo.

Customer Service Manager

So is it possible? Is it safe to swap a flat battery with a fully charged one out in the field? Thinking are the power leads plug in not bolt on terminals, or maybe it is like the freeride e and makes the connection as the battery is dropped in to place?

I don't know enough about all of the mechanical aspects to comment on that, so I won't.

As far as the electrical connections, everything on the battery is via connector.
If you look at the 16 minute video at time stamp 6:26 you can see the battery and motor/inverter on the table. You can see the orange connector on the battery. On the motor/inverter you can also see the orange plug on the wires coming out of the inverter. Those two mate. There is also a communication connector on the battery (twist lock). In short, two connectors on the battery.

 

[UKLee]

I don't know enough about all of the mechanical aspects to comment on that, so I won't.

As far as the electrical connections, everything on the battery is via connector.
If you look at the 16 minute video at time stamp 6:26 you can see the battery and motor/inverter on the table. You can see the orange connector on the battery. On the motor/inverter you can also see the orange plug on the wires coming out of the inverter. Those two mate. There is also a communication connector on the battery (twist lock). In short, two connectors on the battery.

Ok thanks, I assume "making some changes in the plastics" means putting holes in the bodywork to get the bolts that hold the battery out without removing the bodywork.

That said you would think you need to remove the bodywork to get to the battery plugs

 

[enjoythesilenc]

I am the most senior guy on the team that designed the motor, inverter, battery.

I won't tell anything that cannot be gleaned from the 16 minute video (battery layout shown in CAD as well as actual battery case shown, motor shown and stated to be 9kg).
From this it is obvious that it is not the Alta motor (somebody can put it on a scale). It is also obvious that significant thought was put into battery cooling as well as weight distribution.

The only other thing I will say is that we are all happy to be working on this project and are highly motivated to bring it to production.

This is great.

As you can see, many questions and concerns are being raised about the battery. The specs you have listed sound great to me for a general offroad bike: kWh capacity, weight, charging rate and resistance to overheating. Waterproof rating has been described but can you say what sort of tests you have performed?

If at all possible, make the battery serviceable. When battery issues comes up, repair needs to be as convenient, affordable and quick as possible.

Other ideas have been expressed by Alta owners as far as improving the bikes ability. Having a swappable battery is already in discussion in this thread and would really be a great feature. Most users here would happily pay a fair price for a spare battery that can be charged off the bike.

Another idea is to provide a "lite" battery option. A battery smaller than the full pack to make the bike weigh (10kg?) less. We would be happy to have this even if it restricted the power output to compensate for the decrease in capacity. Many usage scenarios will not require 6kWh at 80 horsepower. Can you split your pack in half? We have money, help us spend it