Off-Road Range Guess?

[Alta_mxr]

I had an Alta MXR for 50+ hours then sold when company closed. Since then I have missed the electric bike. I replaced with a KTM 350. Fun too but not very quiet. Beside availability of parts the other reason I sold Alta was range. I don’t motocross much. I ride all off-road usually between 2:20 hr:min to 2:50 hr:min. I could never get even close to that on the Alta. Never used mode 4. Can’t remember what mode I was in but I tried everything even riding at a horribly slow pace and I think the best I could achieve was 1:40 hr:min.

So with all the knowledge and experience of the owners on this site. How long you guess this new bike will make it on a single charge? During trail ride with B level speeds, and a 170# rider?

 

[enjoythesilenc]

There are a lot of ways to look at this given more information about your specific rides and requirements but here's a place to start.

You need a bike that has 40% more range than your old Alta to get from 100 minutes to 140 minutes ride time, your lowest benchmark.

Does the Stark bike have 40% more capacity OR efficiency combined in comparison to the Alta? You either need more kWh battery capacity or a bike system that drains less kWh per minute producing the same ride characteristics.

Before diving into capacity and efficiency details of both bikes, I'm going to guess that the Stark is not 40% better than the Alta, but would like to be convinced otherwise.

 

[Alta_mxr]

So why do they say 6 hours? Totally false advertising. I’m just looking for a solid 3 hours

 

[wwmotors]

Wonders are not possible. 6kwh compared to the 5.8 of the ALTA is not much difference. 10kgs less on the Varg. Thats all! I think, the promised runningtimes are not possible!

 

[Matt]

So why do they say 6 hours? Totally false advertising. I’m just looking for a solid 3 hours

Marketing probably wanted the absolute peak value that is possible from engineering so the lowest power consumption, the smoothest terrain etc. Realistically there are a ton of variables that can change the range but from a consumer average perspective the range likely will not be that much greater than the Alta. I would be surprised to see a 20% range bump. I think where the Varg is going to shine is with pro motocrossers assuming they really did solve the thermal issues because a larger part oft he limiting factor there was thermal issues. I like to think about range from the perspective of average horsepower. 6kWh with 100% system efficiency would be about 8hp continuous for 1 hr. So if you want 2 hours that 4 hp continuous. With ride conditions and other things effecting efficiency the value will be even lower. In my opinion for a good 2 hr ride at a reasonable pace the battery capacity would have to be triple or quadruple what it is now. That's for me personally though.

 

[standbyu]

I (210 pounds) have gotten as much as over 40 miles of single track riding easy with 50-60 mph bursts and in power range 2 & 3 here there. But I run 15 tooth C/S and 50 tooth rear.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

Marketing probably wanted the absolute peak value that is possible from engineering so the lowest power consumption, the smoothest terrain etc. Realistically there are a ton of variables that can change the range but from a consumer average perspective the range likely will not be that much greater than the Alta. I would be surprised to see a 20% range bump. I think where the Varg is going to shine is with pro motocrossers assuming they really did solve the thermal issues because a larger part oft he limiting factor there was thermal issues. I like to think about range from the perspective of average horsepower. 6kWh with 100% system efficiency would be about 8hp continuous for 1 hr. So if you want 2 hours that 4 hp continuous. With ride conditions and other things effecting efficiency the value will be even lower. In my opinion for a good 2 hr ride at a reasonable pace the battery capacity would have to be triple or quadruple what it is now. That's for me personally though.

I have heard claims that the Stark will go the distance with a pro in mxgp. Not sure if it was in the intro video...I have also seen numbers stated here by respected AOF members as to MX pro average power output of 14 or 15 kW (19 horsepower)

6kWh/14kW=.43 hours=26 minutes

I looked up timing data for one mxgp race. The winning time was 35 minutes.

2021 MXGP of Città di Mantova Results

MXGP Motocross Grand Prix racing results from the 2021 MXGP of Città di Mantova.

mxgpresults.com

Looking at the other side of the coin:
35 minutes x 14kW x (1 hour/60 minutes)= 8.2kWh

Did I hear the claims wrong or is my math wrong?

 

[Chadx]

You are correct that Stark claims a pro lever rider can complete a MXGP race on one charge. I believe those races are 30 minutes plus two laps so depending on the track, that 35 minute example seems about right.

My take on it is the 6 hours is from a controlled treadmill run at a constant, slow speed. Is it possible real world? Sure, but that is likely driving on a paved or hard pack surface, no elevation gains, no stop starts, just constant 15 - 25mph speed. Similar thing with all EV. There is just no way they can account for all the variables especially on off-road powersports. At least they didn't publish a mile/km range which is even harder to do. The other caveat on the 6 hour trailride is if that is "moving time" vs "total time". Hopefully they are not playing that game, but from looking at GPS data from all my trail rides, there is a decent gap between those two.

I think the best and most useful estimate they gave was the "one charge is about equivalent to one tank of gas on a 450 MX bike". So, if you understand how long it takes to drain the tank on a 450 in your given environment and riding style, you'll have a good estimate. Pro riders can about drain that tank in 35 minutes MXGP race. That same 450 can be trail ridden for hours and hours. An easy, slow paced family ride will get you way more miles than fast recreational ride with your buddies.

For my trail riding needs, the Varg needs to get at least 40 - 45 miles of slow, family paced riding and 30 - 35 miles of spirited trail riding (spirited meaning moving along at about 80% level vs "all out"). If the summer demo bikes prove to be below that, then I'll unfortunately have to cancel my order. I get 30 - 35 miles out of my Surron X on my mountain single tracks rides and when my wife rides them on forest service road rides and get about 20 - 25 when ridden hard. I am looking for it's replacement to add at least 10 miles to that range. Even if the Varg is the same 30 - 35 miles or range, a big perk would be the improved comfort of fullsize bike suspension and full size bike ergonomics, but at about 3x the cost of the Surron X, it really needs the extra range for me to justify the purchase.

 

[wwmotors]

When i go enduro with my EXR at maximum 50 km/h and 30 average and really chilled on easy tracks and trails, not deep surface, i get maximum 80kms or 2,5 hours. 6 hours is ridicoulos!

 

[Chadx]

Good info. Thanks. If the Varg even slightly exceeds your 30 - 50kph (19 - 31mph) and 80km (50 mile) trail riding range of your Alta, that would seal the deal and I'll accept my Varg order when it's ready.

 

[F451]

Good info. Thanks. If the Varg even slightly exceeds your 30 - 50kph (19 - 31mph) and 80km (50 mile) trail riding range of your Alta, that would seal the deal and I'll complete my Varg order.

And don't forget 25 lb lighter and KYB suspension!

 

[Chadx]

Yeah, lots of advertised great specs and that is why I ordered one on Dec. 14, but for me, inadequate trail range is the only thing that will be a deal breaker and cause me to cancel. Really, I'd still buy any given EV bike even if the weight was more, power was less, and suspension worse than the Alta as long as the range is a bit more! Ha.

Range is my #1 priority above all else. And far above all else. Not sure what thread I said it in, but to say it again, if the range was more on the KTM freeride or KTM came out with an optional battery that would get that 50 or 60 mile range when easy trail riding, I would have already bought that even though it's a 7/8 size bike with economical suspension, brakes, triple clamps, etc. I think KTM is missing out on a lot of sales by not figuring out a larger optional battery for those that want to trail ride.

I'm super excited that the Varg came out since it should not only tick the range box, but also have good power, brakes, suspension, etc.

In short, I'd be willing to settle for less-than-ideal specs if an EV bike had the range I needed, but with the Varg, it looks like I won't have to settle. Will get it all.

 

[Trialsman]

Another thing is to come out with a road legal version as soon as possible. Here in PA we have a lot of connections onto roads and just the appearance of being legal (with lights) would be helpful.

 

[Chadx]

Stark notes the Varg is the first of many bikes. Presumably that means not only enduro and dual sport versions on this platform but also additional platforms.

Enduro and dual sport versions are better geared for my trail use. I like the headlight for oncoming trail traffic visibility and brake light for indicating braking for following traffic. But I'll take what I can get now and see if it's worth changing to another version later.

 

[Trialsman]

My first Alta was an MX which I made street worthy. I used LED lights and a small Lithium battery under the seat. It was a total loss system where it needed charged after each ride, but fully functioning. If I could get 6hr range (60-75mi) I would do it that way again. Until then I will stick with my EXR.

 

[jaylude]

I had an Alta MXR for 50+ hours then sold when company closed. Since then I have missed the electric bike. I replaced with a KTM 350. Fun too but not very quiet. Beside availability of parts the other reason I sold Alta was range. I don’t motocross much. I ride all off-road usually between 2:20 hr:min to 2:50 hr:min. I could never get even close to that on the Alta. Never used mode 4. Can’t remember what mode I was in but I tried everything even riding at a horribly slow pace and I think the best I could achieve was 1:40 hr:min.

So with all the knowledge and experience of the owners on this site. How long you guess this new bike will make it on a single charge? During trail ride with B level speeds, and a 170# rider?

I'm a 175lb B-rider here in New England. My 2018 MXR would go 27ish miles from full charge to light blinking when riding typical New England off-road trails - lots of rocks, roots, slow-ish speed stuff with a few quicker transition sections between. Even being a decent offroad rider, I found mode 3/4 unnecessary for the type of woods I ride, and even 2 wasn't really necessary. The type of riding here means the short little 20-30 second transition section you might actually use mode 3/4 power you're just recuperating from the last rough section and not really goosing it.

If the Stark bike could improve on that by about 5-ish miles, whether through battery capacity, motor efficiency or power modes, that would make a lot of sense to me because the 27-ish mile range I was getting was too short for a typical 2-hour NETRA hare scramble. I'm often at 25-30ish miles after 4-5 laps and 2 hours. Not being able to reliably hit 30 miles was a concern for me taking it racing. Not as big a deal when I was just playing around.

Aside from range, my bigger complaint for electric bike offroad riding wasn't actually the range - I thought it was reasonable given where battery tech is right now. I found the unmitigated, instant torque a real issue, especially when coupled with no clutch to modulate. I really do think that a clutch and/or "tuneable" or highly manageable traction control system would be a bigger turn on for me FOR OFFROAD USE IN CRAPPY, POOR TRACTION CONDITIONS - I didn't miss it anywhere else. The instant torque sure is a lot of fun in dry conditions, but as soon as it was at all muddy or even lightly wet, the bike really became a handful in rough rocky conditions. Forget about it when you're going up a big, rocky hill and the rear wheel gets stuck behind a big, slippery rock. So hard to find tractable power and actually get the bike moving. Major issue when actually racing...you'd waste a bunch of energy and pile up a big line of riders. I never ended up in a big mud pit where you can't get traction and your feet are sliding around with the Alta, but I imagine it would have been a disaster.

Doesn't the wheel spinning use a bunch of power too? The inclusion of better traction control or a clutch could actually improve range.

 

[RonnieT]

I had an Alta MXR for 50+ hours then sold when company closed. Since then I have missed the electric bike. I replaced with a KTM 350. Fun too but not very quiet. Beside availability of parts the other reason I sold Alta was range. I don’t motocross much. I ride all off-road usually between 2:20 hr:min to 2:50 hr:min. I could never get even close to that on the Alta. Never used mode 4. Can’t remember what mode I was in but I tried everything even riding at a horribly slow pace and I think the best I could achieve was 1:40 hr:min.

So with all the knowledge and experience of the owners on this site. How long you guess this new bike will make it on a single charge? During trail ride with B level speeds, and a 170# rider?

I have an Alta EXR. I routinely get more than 30 miles of fast trail riding in the AZ desert. I once got 40 miles in MI. I usually ride map 2. The Stark claims higher efficiency which could come through improved electronics, drive components or cooling for example. I have ordered one.

 

[synics]

You're all crazy to believe the Stark is gonna get barely any more mileage then the mxr. .2kw difference will maybe get you another half mile off-road. If you're getting more than 20 miles off road then you are not riding the bike anywhere near it's potential. I Max it out at 17 miles in map 2 on single track.

 

[gprix1]

You're all crazy to believe the Stark is gonna get barely any more mileage then the mxr. .2kw difference will maybe get you another half mile off-road. If you're getting more than 20 miles off road then you are not riding the bike anywhere near it's potential. I Max it out at 17 miles in map 2 on single track.

Agreed. Even on map 1 I barely got 20 miles. With map 1, I was just having to twist the throttle a lot more. After a while, I ended up staying on map 4 as it didn't really change the range but was a lot nicer to ride.

 

[synics]

That surprises me, because if I ride map 4 I would kill that battery in like 8 miles easy.