Off-Road Range Guess?

[gprix1]

That surprises me, because if I ride map 4 I would kill that battery in like 8 miles easy

I'm talking same moderate trail pace. At race pace yeah, probably 10 miles max. I never ran the bike that hard on trails because I wanted to make it back. That too always bothered me about the Alta. Always holding back to conserve the battery whereas on my TX300, I can go 100% without any worries.

 

[synics]

Yeah same thing with my 350xc-f. Although I blew my knee out Wednesday hitting a tree. I'm gonna be out for months.

 

[Chadx]

So the take away from this thread, so far, is the same as from every 'range' thread I've ever read for an EV dirtbike (Alta, KTM Freeride, Surron X, Surron Storm, Zero FX, etc.). Ha. That is that every trail rider has greatly different preferred riding speed, outdoor temperature, elevation gain/loss, and surface firmness and that makes it very hard for anyone to predict what range another rider will get. In the very small sample size of this thread alone, there are Alta trail riding ranges from 8 miles to 50 miles (80km). I image the wide range variation will be the same for the Varg once orders are fulfilled and riders get them out on the trails.

That being said, based on the sliiiiiightly larger battery capacity, design features to improve efficiency and also based on some of the test rider comments, I expect the Varg to get better range than the Alta for any given rider riding the same way on the same terrain. How much more is the question that no one can answer until the demo bikes hit the ground summer 2022 and orders start getting fulfilled fall or winter of 2022. Will it be an improvement of 3.5% (which is approximate battery capacity increase), 10% (due to both battery capacity increase and motor efficiency increase) or more? I don't think anyone can predict, but fun to speculate.

For all the reasons mentioned above, once the real world range tests do come out, realize that those tests will be different rider speeds, temperature, elevation changes, and surfaces and leave the readers/viewers trying to deduce our potential range by comparing theirs and trying to adjust for our riding parameters.

As for the Alta to Varg range comparison, I'm also curious on if there is a percentage improvement and if so, how much, but the only meaningful way to get valid comparative data will be for the tester to run a specific trail on an Alta then run it on the Varg the same day. Even the same rider but a different day (temp, riding style) and different trail/terrain wouldn't give good comparative data, unfortunately.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

I'm a 175lb B-rider here in New England. My 2018 MXR would go 27ish miles from full charge to light blinking when riding typical New England off-road trails - lots of rocks, roots, slow-ish speed stuff with a few quicker transition sections between. Even being a decent offroad rider, I found mode 3/4 unnecessary for the type of woods I ride, and even 2 wasn't really necessary. The type of riding here means the short little 20-30 second transition section you might actually use mode 3/4 power you're just recuperating from the last rough section and not really goosing it.

If the Stark bike could improve on that by about 5-ish miles, whether through battery capacity, motor efficiency or power modes, that would make a lot of sense to me because the 27-ish mile range I was getting was too short for a typical 2-hour NETRA hare scramble. I'm often at 25-30ish miles after 4-5 laps and 2 hours. Not being able to reliably hit 30 miles was a concern for me taking it racing. Not as big a deal when I was just playing around.

Aside from range, my bigger complaint for electric bike offroad riding wasn't actually the range - I thought it was reasonable given where battery tech is right now. I found the unmitigated, instant torque a real issue, especially when coupled with no clutch to modulate. I really do think that a clutch and/or "tuneable" or highly manageable traction control system would be a bigger turn on for me FOR OFFROAD USE IN CRAPPY, POOR TRACTION CONDITIONS - I didn't miss it anywhere else. The instant torque sure is a lot of fun in dry conditions, but as soon as it was at all muddy or even lightly wet, the bike really became a handful in rough rocky conditions. Forget about it when you're going up a big, rocky hill and the rear wheel gets stuck behind a big, slippery rock. So hard to find tractable power and actually get the bike moving. Major issue when actually racing...you'd waste a bunch of energy and pile up a big line of riders. I never ended up in a big mud pit where you can't get traction and your feet are sliding around with the Alta, but I imagine it would have been a disaster.

Doesn't the wheel spinning use a bunch of power too? The inclusion of better traction control or a clutch could actually improve range.

I agree with the zero traction struggle situations you describe. Those spots can quickly deplete any energy the rider has and ruin the ride. As for simple wheel spin, i think it varies. If you are just accelerating the mass of the wheel as you spin on a slimy rock, less energy is lost in comparison to throwing bushels of heavy sand in the opposite direction. If you are accelerating the bike and/or the soil, you are burning electricity. If you are only accelerating the wheel and tire, you burn less in comparison.

 

[Butch]

“I was told there would be no math”

edit for context… I was auditing a “Negotiating” class at Santa Clara Law School ( crazy, eh?) and some guy was called on with some complicated question and that was his response. classic. And yeah, I got called on once too. Funny shit. I was prolly 40 years old at the time. Kids. Ha.

 

[Alta_mxr]

If the new stark could complete either ride with single charge I’m in

Both done on Ktm 350 did run out of gas on the 63 miler but was like a mile from the truck. Just took a little gas from my buddies tank.

 

[Redwolf]

34 Miles with 2800ft elevation? My EXR will do that without a struggle, that's just about one of my regular rides from the house to the post office and back. The Stark should have no issues with that.

A 63 miles lap on one charge? I will have to see it (ride it) to believe it.

 

[Alta_mxr]

All I know on my MXR trail riding on semi tight trails and a decent pace around 15-16mph average. I could only make 1 hour 15 - 30 minutes ride time. Mode 1 even and stock sprockets. Maybe I needed to play with gearing more. Or it needed some flywheel weight

 

[enjoythesilenc]

Some food for thought, most people have no idea of how much fuel they burn offroad. Thats great because you are riding without the burden of range anxiety for the most part.

4-stroke vs. 2-stroke gas mileage

We all know the basic differences between 2 and 4 strike engines. My question is....... will a 4-stroke motorcycle travel twice as far as a 2-stroke motorcycle using the same amount of fuel? Thanks in advance...

dirtrider.net

Very imprecise but I assume this guy is dualsporting:

DA BEAST (Yamaha YZ450FX) | Fuelly

This guy is probably also dualsporting (30-40 mpg) but has a couple of (assumably) pure offroad rides at "the quarry" 20 mpg

Sand Monster (BMW G450X) | Fuelly

Then there is a zero streetbike with a 13kWh pack who gets about 110 mile max range on the street

Zero SR ZF13.0 (ZERO Zero SR ZF13.0) | Fuelly

Altamxr, how much gas did you burn on your 60 mile ride?

 

[Alta_mxr]

Says in manual 2.25 gallons so all of that plus a little bit to get back to truck. And average speed for entire route was 23mph. Not a tight trail system but very fast and varied terrain. Whoops trees and burms. Peaks were 40mph and lows were 10-12mph.

 

[Dirt-E]

I did a lap from Fairfax City, VA to the national mall in Washington DC. Road pressure tires, map 2, and doing highway speeds (55mph) for the first half on my EXR. I want to say it was roughly 45 miles round trip and I was just about pushing the thing back to the garage on the second half, but it made it. Moderate hills involved and lower resistance than dirt riding, so I can say it likely won't reach over 50 miles unless you're going maybe 20-30mph the whole time and on pavement.

I figured out how to throw the charger in a backpack in case I ever got into a true emergency power situation, but it's rare you would do that whilst riding in the dirt. Not sure it would be safe if you crashed doing that, but it's a possibility.

 

[synics]

All I know on my MXR trail riding on semi tight trails and a decent pace around 15-16mph average. I could only make 1 hour 15 - 30 minutes ride time. Mode 1 even and stock sprockets. Maybe I needed to play with gearing more. Or it needed some flywheel weight

No you're right, same as me. If I ride the woods on map 1 and 2 on my 2018 MXR with an 18" 110/100-18 Dunlop MX12 sand tire I get an average of 16-18 miles. If I ride in map 3 I'll get about 12 miles. Map 4, forget about it. Now if I switch it over to the stock 100/90-19 tire, I get an extra mile or so. AND that's with me holding back. If I rode it at race pace I wouldn't even make those numbers in either maps. So that really limits the amount of time I'm willing to spend on it. Meanwhile with my KTM XC-F 350 with the 3.2 gallon IMS tank I can ride FOREVER as hard as I want.

Don't fool yourselves, the Varg isn't going to to do much better than that at all given it's very relative technology. At least certainly not better enough to give the gas bikes a rest. If you're going out on a ride with your buddies, you're gonna have to take the gas bike, cuz they ain't waiting for no one.

I will say though, now that gas prices are getting out of control, maybe I'll spend more time on the Alta. : )

 

[Matt]

Adapting riding styles to cater to the range of my Alta has made me a better and faster rider. Limiting wheel spin is a huge saver on energy and directly helps increase range. I have focused on riding smoother and with more flow particularly in single track and hairscambles. While I had to sacrifice some speed at first I have now eclipsed my speed from before and use less energy doing it, both the bike and my own body. I can still go faster in map 4 blitzing the woods than I can in map 1 but that divide has gotten a lot closer and for a longer race I can't hold a sprint for very long to begin with so it doesn't matter much. If I ride race pace in map 1 I can now get upwards of 24 miles on a mix of single track, open fields, and ATV trails in the rooty rocky muddy north east. Map 4 I can get maybe 14 -16 but before both were significantly worse.

 

[synics]

Adapting riding styles to cater to the range of my Alta has made me a better and faster rider. Limiting wheel spin is a huge saver on energy and directly helps increase range. I have focused on riding smoother and with more flow particularly in single track and hairscambles. While I had to sacrifice some speed at first I have now eclipsed my speed from before and use less energy doing it, both the bike and my own body. I can still go faster in map 4 blitzing the woods than I can in map 1 but that divide has gotten a lot closer and for a longer race I can't hold a sprint for very long to begin with so it doesn't matter much. If I ride race pace in map 1 I can now get upwards of 24 miles on a mix of single track, open fields, and ATV trails in the rooty rocky muddy north east. Map 4 I can get maybe 14 -16 but before both were significantly worse.

your Alta must have a way better battery than mine, lol

 

[Matt]

your Alta must have a way better battery than mine, lol

I think it's a combination of factors but one big one is likely terrain differences. No sand here helps a lot. I use to get range closer to what you have described though not quite as bad. I just have adapted my riding style to focus on maintaining traction and trying to ride smoother vs any hard acceleration. Doesn't always work because sometimes I get throttle happy or I get tired and start compensating with the throttle but for the most part I can keep my cool. I started focusing on it a lot more because the 24hr race I do every year is a 12mile loop and I was trying to figure out a way to ride fast for 2 laps because it saves a lot of time to minimize rider shift changes. So originally I backed off but then started finding I could go nearly the same speed if I focused on riding smooth and maintiang traction and now I can go pretty fast using that method.

 

[synics]

Yeah it's all about being smooth. We have a saying here in Jersey, smooth is fast. And yeah, we have LOTS of sand here. Check out this ride from this weekend.

 

[gprix1]

All I know on my MXR trail riding on semi tight trails and a decent pace around 15-16mph average. I could only make 1 hour 15 - 30 minutes ride time. Mode 1 even and stock sprockets. Maybe I needed to play with gearing more. Or it needed some flywheel weight

Pretty much my experience too. I think the biggest variable is the rider.

 

[dbc105]

Well I'm a member of NATRA, we held National Enduros for years. What Stark needs to do is send me a test bike to use for...say...the summer, LOL, to see how well it holds up in real life trail riding. I'm 63 and weight about 250 and not at all fast so I would be the perfect test rider.

LOL, I'll let you all know when it shows up in my driveway.

 

[Rix]

Of the numerous 2 wheeled EVs I have ridden over the last 11 years, I have came up with a simple formula to get in the ball park real world off road semi spirited riding range estimates. Take whatever the manufacture says, and divide by 2. Glad I can help.

 

[Alta_mxr]

Of the numerous 2 wheeled EVs I have ridden over the last 11 years, I have came up with a simple formula to get in the ball park real world off road semi spirited riding range estimates. Take whatever the manufacture says, and divide by 2. Glad I can help.

Great so like 3 hours then