General Poll, response appreciated

[fsfs]

The last four inverters that I have worked on all have an integrated IMU (inertial measurement unit). The idea is to use this for traction control that actually works in conditions where you cannot rely on wheel speed sensors. Think of it functioning somewhat like an autopilot for drones. Due to reasons I will not get into here, we have not been able to make proper use of the IMU. In short, our hands have been tied behind our backs. During the past week this has been nagging me. I am very curious to see if these ideas have merit or are just plain shit. What has been missing is a hardware platform to test these ideas. Well, perhaps the previous sentence is wrong and the platform has been staring me in the face all this time; Surron, Talaria, etc.

If we go ahead with this it will go as follows:

1. Develop a quality MOSFET based inverter that can be used on said bikes (with integrated IMU of course).
2. Work with test riders to develop the software (on prototype inverters).
3. Start production on inverters once the software provides appreciable advantage over “open loop” control.

So I have a few questions:

a) Would you consider this cheating? Would you care?
b) Would you be willing to help in the development process?
c) As someone who has not participated in the development process, would you be willing to pay a bit of a premium for this inverter?

Thank you in advance for your replies and feel free to call me dumb

 

[Philip]

What a cool project! But is this traction control tech going to be eventually used in the Varg or in the Surron and Talaria?

And doesn't the Varg already have an IMU somewhere (besides the cell phone)?

 

[fsfs]

What a cool project! But is this traction control tech going to be eventually used in the Varg or in the Surron and Talaria?

And doesn't the Varg already have an IMU somewhere (besides the cell phone)?

The idea is for the tech to be in aftermarket MOSFET inverters that can be installed on Surrons, Talarias, etc. There are no plans for the Varg.

 

[TCMB371]

1) no, I consider it taking advantage of electric technology. Screw the haters
2) sure!
3) maybe if the benefits were high

Question though. What's wrong with the method you used with Alta? Define acceleration limits, preventing the rear tire from spinning up faster than a set value. Just having that parameter available in the app would be amazing. Adjusting it on the Alta had pretty awesome effects. I was able to ride in mud with max power with very little tire spin.

 

[Philip]

a) Not cheating, just a different version of traction control that all dirt bikes already have anyway.
b) I do not have a Surron/Talaria, sorry.
c) No, I do not think a 6 kW mini-bike needs an advanced traction control.

 

[Theo]

a) Would you consider this cheating? Would you care?

I personally think that keeping the power under control using the throttle is part of the fun of riding and it's a skill I want to keep trained, so honestly I think I wouldn't like it. Never tried it on a motorcycle, though.

b) Would you be willing to help in the development process?
c) As someone who has not participated in the development process, would you be willing to pay a bit of a premium for this inverter?

Since my only electric bike is a Varg and I probably live too far, I can't help, unfortunately.

3. Start production on inverters once the software provides appreciable advantage over “open loop” control.

So, does your system use a closed loop, measuring the effect of the previous intervention to then adjust the next intervention, while the typical traction control only uses some criteria like rotational acceleration of the engine, without checking the result?

 

[fsfs]

1) no, I consider it taking advantage of electric technology. Screw the haters
2) sure!
3) maybe if the benefits were high

Question though. What's wrong with the method you used with Alta? Define acceleration limits, preventing the rear tire from spinning up faster than a set value. Just having that parameter available in the app would be amazing. Adjusting it on the Alta had pretty awesome effects. I was able to ride in mud with max power with very little tire spin.

There is nothing wrong with a fixed (constant) acceleration limit. That limit really isn't a constant and I think it is possible to do significantly better.

For the App I am assuming the Varg's app. We have zero influence on Varg development -- this has been the case for a significant amount of time now. What we are looking for is a platform to test our ideas. Since the Varg is no longer a realistic option we are exploring our options.

 

[fsfs]

I personally think that keeping the power under control using the throttle is part of the fun of riding and it's a skill I want to keep trained, so honestly I think I wouldn't like it. Never tried it on a motorcycle, though.


Since my only electric bike is a Varg and I probably live too far, I can't help, unfortunately.


So, does your system use a closed loop, measuring the effect of the previous intervention to then adjust the next intervention, while the typical traction control only uses some criteria like rotational acceleration of the engine, without checking the result?

One part of it is using the IMU to measure what is actually happening and use that information in the next cycle. However, there is more to it than that. Also, the final form will likely have considerable differences from initial ideas/plans. That is why we need a test platform and riders.

A good result is far from guaranteed, but I believe we have a good chance at creating something quite good.

Edit: As you mentioned location we are in Croatia.

 

[Brillie35]

1) no, I consider it taking advantage of electric technology. Screw the haters
2) sure!
3) maybe if the benefits were high

Question though. What's wrong with the method you used with Alta? Define acceleration limits, preventing the rear tire from spinning up faster than a set value. Just having that parameter available in the app would be amazing. Adjusting it on the Alta had pretty awesome effects. I was able to ride in mud with max power with very little tire spin.

How do you adjust this parameter on the Alta?
Is it available in Multitool?

 

[fsfs]

a) Not cheating, just a different version of traction control that all dirt bikes already have anyway.
b) I do not have a Surron/Talaria, sorry.
c) No, I do not think a 6 kW mini-bike needs an advanced traction control.

As for point C, I think a Surron with an upgraded inverter is considerably more than a "6 kW mini-bike" and there definitely is some value for advanced traction control. However, the more capable and powerful the bike the more it will benefit from advanced traction control. So from a technical perspective from worst to best is Surron/Talaria, Alta, Varg.

Now if we look at delivering to the customer:

1. Surron is best as after market inverters are available and our would be one of the options but traction control would be the differentiating feature.

2. Alta is capable but there is no real business case for it.

3. We could do it on a Varg but have no immediate way of delivering it to owners. However, this is the path to the technically best result. Once we have the knowledge and algorithms this might pay off in the future in ways we cannot predict at this time.

In any case this is something I personally really want to do. The reason I am posting this here is we will need test riders and I can't think of any better method than publically letting our intentions be known.

So #1 is perhaps the best direct business case but #3 is also quite interesting.

We will likely do one of those 2. If you have an opinion/vote your input would be appreciated.

 

[Theo]

Actualy something that has not been mentioned yet dabout the Varg is the warranty. All Vargs are still under warranty and I personally wouldn't void it replacing the inverter with an aftermarket one.
I still wish you good luck with your project, of course, even if most likely I won't participate.

 

[fsfs]

Actualy something that has not been mentioned yet dabout the Varg is the warranty. All Vargs are still under warranty and I personally wouldn't void it replacing the inverter with an aftermarket one.
I still wish you good luck with your project, of course, even if most likely I won't participate.

On the Varg this does not involve any hardware modification. It uses the existing inverter. There is no way to "deliver" this to Varg owners. It is only for us to learn and develop the algorithms. What happens from that point is anybody's guess.

 

[Number Six]

Maybe just procure a Surron & be able to test the concept whenever / however you'd like ?
They are quite inexpensive typically & the Light Bee & Ultra Bee are likely the largest market of prospective customers, at least currently.

 

[Philip]

As for point C, I think a Surron with an upgraded inverter is considerably more than a "6 kW mini-bike" and there definitely is some value for advanced traction control. However, the more capable and powerful the bike the more it will benefit from advanced traction control. So from a technical perspective from worst to best is Surron/Talaria, Alta, Varg.

Now if we look at delivering to the customer:

1. Surron is best as after market inverters are available and our would be one of the options but traction control would be the differentiating feature.

2. Alta is capable but there is no real business case for it.

3. We could do it on a Varg but have no immediate way of delivering it to owners. However, this is the path to the technically best result. Once we have the knowledge and algorithms this might pay off in the future in ways we cannot predict at this time.

In any case this is something I personally really want to do. The reason I am posting this here is we will need test riders and I can't think of any better method than publically letting our intentions be known.

So #1 is perhaps the best direct business case but #3 is also quite interesting.

We will likely do one of those 2. If you have an opinion/vote your input would be appreciated.

Traction control on a Surron is okay, but if you decide to add Wheelie Control to your inverter, I will buy myself a Surron and beg you to sign me up as a test rider! Then I could work on traction control as well if the bike has enough power to break traction.

Paul S. mentioned to me almost 3 years ago about wanting an advanced traction control just like you describe. And I wanted to be his #1 test rider. Oddly, you have to go around Stark Future to work on developing such a system. I thought there would be more factory support for such an idea.

I hate to say it, but there must be forums and Facebook groups with several times more potential test riders than we have here. In my small town, there are probably a few dozen Surrons but only two Stark Vargs. It seems that most of these Surron owners are below the legal driving age. None of these kids are on this forum, so they must be chatting about their bikes somewhere else.

 

[Number Six]

I have an Ultra Bee that I've pretty heavily modified the suspension & ergonomics on to be (mostly) suitable for mid-west single track riding.
.. it's still too short but thats a whole other conversation.
The light weight & instant response are truly terrific on the right type of terrain ; that of being relatively smooth & fairly tight.

The very 1st thing I did was shut off entirely the traction control system. It often limited available power at exactly the wrong times ...
Granted, it's not a very sophisticated system, but there are plenty of occasions when one needs to have the rear tire break traction & others where a quick application of power without it being diluted is the difference between staying upright & tipping over.

 

[fsfs]

Traction control on a Surron is okay, but if you decide to add Wheelie Control to your inverter, I will buy myself a Surron and beg you to sign me up as a test rider! Then I could work on traction control as well if the bike has enough power to break traction.

You will have the ability to enable wheelie control if you want it; and select the angle. I mentioned autopilot/drone where it knows pitch, yaw, roll. The pitch axis gives you wheelie control. That part is actually easier than the traction.

 

[Theo]

You will have the ability to enable wheelie control if you want it; and select the angle. I mentioned autopilot/drone where it knows pitch, yaw, roll. The pitch axis gives you wheelie control. That part is actually easier than the traction.

I suck at wheeling intentionally and I can't wheelie through skim whoops like the fast riders can do. Do you think you could create a kind of control that, when someone opens the throttle enough, will keep a wheelie or at least help keeping it in a situation like that?

What happens if you set an angle and then the angle is exceeded because of a slope of the ground and not because of a wheelie?

I hope this is still relevant and I'm not digressing too much from the main topic here.

 

[fsfs]

I suck at wheeling intentionally and I can't wheelie through skim whoops like the fast riders can do. Do you think you could create a kind of control that, when someone opens the throttle enough, will keep a wheelie or at least help keeping it in a situation like that?

What happens if you set an angle and then the angle is exceeded because of a slope of the ground and not because of a wheelie?

I hope this is still relevant and I'm not digressing too much from the main topic here.

What happens is the electric motor spins up the rear wheel very quickly after it leaves the ground. This raises the front and lowers the rear, causing the rear to slam into the next whoop. I have written software to mitigate this and given it to Stark Future about a year ago. I don't know if they have released it to users or plan to do so.

 

[Theo]

What happens is the electric motor spins up the rear wheel very quickly after it leaves the ground. This raises the front and lowers the rear, causing the rear to slam into the next whoop. I have written software to mitigate this and given it to Stark Future about a year ago. I don't know if they have released it to users or plan to do so.

I actually meant something different: some skilled guys sometimes wheelie through whoops sections, like this:

and my question was: what if I wanted to do the same thing without having the skills: do you think that it could be done using a kind of wheelie control which prevents the rider from raising the front end too much and flip back?

 

[fsfs]

I actually meant something different: some skilled guys sometimes wheelie through whoops sections, like this:

and my question was: what if I wanted to do the same thing without having the skills: do you think that it could be done using a kind of wheelie control which prevents the rider from raising the front end too much and flip back?

The same fundamental problem still exists. If you are on the throttle when the rear wheel loses contact with the ground the front will rise and rear will lower unless you perfectly time closing the throttle a bit when the rear leaves the ground and open a bit when the rear contacts the ground. Not even pros are that fast with their wrist.