Stark 'demo'

[rayivers]

I figured it might be a good idea to start a new thread, as there may be additional Varg sightings moving forward.

I checked out the Stark yesterday (12/23/22) at Colonial Power & Sport in Milford, CT. It's a big place with a huge inventory of new Husky and KTM dirt bikes, plus Royal Enfields and a bunch of powersports-related vehicles and gear. The staff were great to talk to as well. Afaik this bike will be at Big Boyz Toys in Marlboro, NY on Dec. 28th.

I got there just as the Stark rolled in. My first impression was identical to the Alta - a quality, well-put-together package with cutting-edge tech. This bike was one of the Barcelona press-week bikes, in like-new condition with a little rock pitting on the fork tubes & pre-production plastic. The few pics I took were either blurry or of brake components, so here are Matt's excellent shots of the same bike. It was complete except for battery cells and fluids.

I learned some things from the guy traveling with the bike (can't recall his name, but very knowledgeable); apparently the battery's rebuildable (no goop, cells assembled w/thermal sleeves, 21700 cell ends in full thermal contact with magnesium case, ctr terminal block), no rear brake pedal+lever option available on new bikes (possible aftermarket solution later), bikes will be offroad-only for now, dealer riding demos set to start May 2023 (appointments made online), with first deliveries @ August 2023. He had ridden the bike, and told me it had no powerband (like the Alta), and the front end did not feel heavy (unlike the Alta - comments in quotes are mine, not his).

Ergonomics: I found the seat narrow but comfortable for the short time I sat on it. I don't grip much with my legs but felt a large amount of area available for gripping, & had a feeling of sliding into the bike rather than onto it. The bars seemed nearly straight across to me, and my riding position was head-above-display-looking-down (probably ideal for MX/SX, but not for the trail riding I do - hey, it's a race bike . All in all, a positive impression.

Measurements / guesswork?:

38.0" / 965mm seat height (@ same as OEM Alta MXR)
22.5" / 571mm rear axle to footpeg ctr (@ same as MXR, 22.25")
21.5" / 546mm footpeg ctr to seat top (same as MXR)
57.5" / 1460mm wheelbase (approximate, MXR 58.5")
260mm F brake rotor (Galfer)
9mm? F brake MC piston (Brembo)
24mm? F brake caliper pistons (two, Brembo)
11mm? R LH brake MC piston (Formula? Performance?)
24mm? R brake caliper piston (Brembo)

Using the above brake numbers w/all else equal, the Stark FB should be about 22% higher pressure/stronger than the MXR's, & RB the same (hand RB only, both bikes).

On a side note - both Stark dealers I contacted suggested canceling my online orders and initiating new ones with them, to get my bike sooner. I didn't know exactly what that meant so I E-mailed Stark. Basically, their reply was

A) yes, the dealers will get the first bikes, so
B) if I cancelled my online order I could then buy a Stark from dealer stock a lot sooner, but
C) I'd forfeit my deposit, customizations, and place in line.

This was a lose/lose/lose scenario for me, but if someone needed a Stark - ANY Stark - absolutely ASAP, things might be different.

 

[F451]

...
On a side note - both Stark dealers I contacted suggested canceling my online orders and initiating new ones with them, to get my bike sooner. I didn't know exactly what that meant so I E-mailed Stark. Basically, their reply was

A) yes, the dealers will get the first bikes, so
B) if I cancelled my online order I could then buy a Stark from dealer stock a lot sooner, but
C) I'd forfeit my deposit, customizations, and place in line.

This was a lose/lose/lose scenario for me, but if someone needed a Stark - ANY Stark - absolutely ASAP, things might be different.

Thanks for the great report.

But, Wow. I can't believe what I'm reading about the dealers getting the bikes first. What was the point of everyone putting down their $100 deposits? What is the benefit of putting down a deposit if I can just stop by my local dealer and buy a Stark there, and get it months earlier?

Seems like if that was the plan that should have been communicated to potential customers upfront.

The deposit plan seems like a rip off to me if this is all true.

What am I missing here?

 

[rayivers]

What was the point of everyone putting down their $100 deposits? What is the benefit of putting down a deposit if I can just stop by my local dealer and buy a Stark there, and get it months earlier?

Well, for me it was about getting the Stark I wanted instead of the Stark the dealer thought might sell the quickest - and also getting a later rather than earlier one, which worked out well for me in both my Zero and Alta purchases. I'm also hoping to get the bike drop-shipped to my house, which I was able to do with my YZ. The Stark dealer network is a fairly recent development, I don't think there were any at all when I put down my deposit.

 

[Philip]

What am I missing here?

You'd save at least $1,100 by keeping your order and deposit. You will get the suspension sprung and valved for your weight and riding style. And someone else will get early production units with their bugs, which will hopefully be fixed quickly. it's a win/win/win.

 

[rayivers]

You'd save at least $1,100 by keeping your order and deposit.

Very true! The shock/fork spring changeout alone would be a significant amount, and a PITA to do. I hate ripping apart a brand-new bike.

 

[TCMB371]

Great assessment! Where was that 38" seat height measured to? Straight vertical line through the footpegs? The Alta seat height is a touch lower than modern gas bikes. I can flat foot both boots on the ground on my Alta, but not on my 450.

 

[rayivers]

Great assessment! Where was that 38" seat height measured to? Straight vertical line through the footpegs? The Alta seat height is a touch lower than modern gas bikes. I can flat foot both boots on the ground on my Alta, but not on my 450.

Thanks! The tape measure was behind the RH peg, touching it. It was kinda hard to keep the bike perfectly vertical, so it might be off a small amount.

 

[Happy Track MX]

Great report.

 

[SHSMITH76]

I have to say, I have been very positive about this bike, and have defended Stark during the setbacks. I am disappointed to hear that dealers will get their bikes before the customers who have been waiting over a year with a deposit down. I would think at the very least our bikes should be shipped in the same container as the stock bikes for the dealers so we would get them at the same time.. That really is a kick in the teeth if that is the way it is going to play out.

 

[SHSMITH76]

I figured it might be a good idea to start a new thread, as there may be additional Varg sightings moving forward.

I checked out the Stark yesterday (12/23/22) at Colonial Power & Sport in Milford, CT. It's a big place with a huge inventory of new Husky and KTM dirt bikes, plus Royal Enfields and a bunch of powersports-related vehicles and gear. The staff were great to talk to as well. Afaik this bike will be at Big Boyz Toys in Marlboro, NY on Dec. 28th.

I got there just as the Stark rolled in. My first impression was identical to the Alta - a quality, well-put-together package with cutting-edge tech. This bike was one of the Barcelona press-week bikes, in like-new condition with a little rock pitting on the fork tubes & pre-production plastic. The few pics I took were either blurry or of brake components, so here are Matt's excellent shots of the same bike. It was complete except for battery cells and fluids.

I learned some things from the guy traveling with the bike (can't recall his name, but very knowledgeable); apparently the battery's rebuildable (no goop, cells assembled w/thermal sleeves, 21700 cell ends in full thermal contact with magnesium case, ctr terminal block), no rear brake pedal+lever option available on new bikes (possible aftermarket solution later), bikes will be offroad-only for now, dealer riding demos set to start May 2023 (appointments made online), with first deliveries @ August 2023. He had ridden the bike, and told me it had no powerband (like the Alta), and the front end did not feel heavy (unlike the Alta - comments in quotes are mine, not his).

Ergonomics: I found the seat narrow but comfortable for the short time I sat on it. I don't grip much with my legs but felt a large amount of area available for gripping, & had a feeling of sliding into the bike rather than onto it. The bars seemed nearly straight across to me, and my riding position was head-above-display-looking-down (probably ideal for MX/SX, but not for the trail riding I do - hey, it's a race bike . All in all, a positive impression.

Measurements / guesswork?:

38.0" / 965mm seat height (@ same as OEM Alta MXR)
22.5" / 571mm rear axle to footpeg ctr (@ same as MXR, 22.25")
21.5" / 546mm footpeg ctr to seat top (same as MXR)
57.5" / 1460mm wheelbase (approximate, MXR 58.5")
260mm F brake rotor (Galfer)
9mm? F brake MC piston (Brembo)
24mm? F brake caliper pistons (two, Brembo)
11mm? R LH brake MC piston (Formula? Performance?)
24mm? R brake caliper piston (Brembo)

Using the above brake numbers w/all else equal, the Stark FB should be about 22% higher pressure/stronger than the MXR's, & RB the same (hand RB only, both bikes).

On a side note - both Stark dealers I contacted suggested canceling my online orders and initiating new ones with them, to get my bike sooner. I didn't know exactly what that meant so I E-mailed Stark. Basically, their reply was

A) yes, the dealers will get the first bikes, so
B) if I cancelled my online order I could then buy a Stark from dealer stock a lot sooner, but
C) I'd forfeit my deposit, customizations, and place in line.

This was a lose/lose/lose scenario for me, but if someone needed a Stark - ANY Stark - absolutely ASAP, things might be different.

Thank you for the info!! I have heard that the display was functional. Did you get to play around with that at all and was it easy to navigate?

 

[rayivers]

I am disappointed to hear that dealers will get their bikes before the customers who have been waiting over a year with a deposit down.

My take is quite different. If Stark initially cuts out the dealers completely, many will vanish and never return (in my local area, at least six Zero dealers have come and gone - electric dealers can be fragile things). Also, us electric folks are a market-savvy bunch pre-ordering on faith, but once the bikes start shipping and the Internet blows up with reports/videos, I feel there will be many prospective buyers (ICE and electric) heading to dealers, being amazed by the Stark, and possibly going home with one only IF they're available (the demo had this effect last Friday, without the sale of course). I think Stark may likely produce large batches of bikes with what are deemed to be the 'most popular' option sets for the dealers, then do our custom builds while the dealers sell their stock.

 

[rayivers]

Thank you for the info!! I have heard that the display was functional. Did you get to play around with that at all and was it easy to navigate?

No problem - wish I had more to report. I didn't even touch the display - it seemed like the most sought-after item in the whole store. I'm not sure it was fully functional, as the bike was electrically dead and nothing would've been communicating.

 

[Philip]

I can't quite recall... Has Stark always planned on having a large dealer network? Or have the dealers been announced much later? I suspect the need for dealers has sprung up as a result of all the pre-orders that they received. They needed to expand and sign up enough dealers.

I am not upset that the dealers are going to get their bikes before me. I still have my Altas to ride until then.

 

[rayivers]

Has Stark always planned on having a large dealer network?

Good question... in the beginning there seemed like more of a direct-to-end-user vibe, then later we started hearing about dealers / support etc. The Stark guy said there was extensive dealer training, and this AM the guy I got my Altas from told me they'd looked into Stark, but the requirements weren't as dealer-friendly as Alta's so they passed - too bad, excellent dealer.

 

[SHSMITH76]

I wrote to Stark and they emailed me back and respected my point of view, but they said dealers will get some bikes first to have techs something to train on and get familiar with, also dealers stock and customer order will be dispersed appropriately as logistics dictates. I see their point, dealers most likely have paid Stark to become dealers and they should have some priority....I have other bikes to ride..just excited to get this thing that's all

 

[rayivers]

I have other bikes to ride..just excited to get this thing that's all

+1 ! We might actually get to ride one in May, not too far off

 

[Number Six]

The more of these that get out there in the wild prior to our pre order deliveries the better IMO, as invariably there will be teething issues that haven't materialized during development & testing.
Sure I'd rather have mine in May as opposed to August, but I'd also prefer to have any glitches already identified & adressed.
Don't mind waiting a bit on a more fully fleshed-out machine that I'd plan on keeping for years.
Once the bikes are delivered - An established up-to-speed dealer network can only be a positive should we need any technical help & hopefully they'll stock basic parts like plastics & such.
.

 

[wwmotors]

In my opinion, it was a mistake from STARK, to offer a presale. Manufacturers never should sell bikes themself! This should be the dealers job. Otherwise no one will survive. The manufacturer needs the dealership and the dealers only survive, when they earn the percentage!

 

[SHSMITH76]

In my opinion, it was a mistake from STARK, to offer a presale. Manufacturers never should sell bikes themself! This should be the dealers job. Otherwise no one will survive. The manufacturer needs the dealership and the dealers only survive, when they earn the percentage!

I totally agree with what you are saying, but maybe their thinking was to offer a measly down payment ($100) to gauge interest for investors and test the waters on interest. The way they did it probably helped them build a dealer base as well. If you go look at the Stark site and look at the dealer network it is pretty impressive so quickly.

 

[rayivers]

Got back this afternoon from my 2nd Stark demo at Big Boyz Toys in Marlboro NY. It's a mostly-offroad dealership with a lot of enthusiasm for the Stark, Alta, and electric vehicles in general, a great fit. Josh the Stark guy was there again, and provided info for upcoming demos in New England:

Monty's Motorsports, Westfield, MA, (413) 642-8199 (12/29/22?)
Pilgrim Powersports, Plymouth MA (508) 747-6181 (12/30/22?)
Motorsports International, Auburn, MA (508) 832-9494 (date unknown)
Souhegan Valley Motorsports, Milford NH (603) 673-6007 (date unknown)
Motorbikes Plus, Portsmouth, NH (603) 334-6686 (date unknown)

The tour then heads south with another guy (Jason) to a bunch more dealers, thru Texas, and ends up in Arizona where it started. Check out the Stark dealer page for dealer list & locations.

Dealer Info: Big Boyz ordered 40! Vargs, any of which can be fully customized up till 90 days fm delivery date. The $100 online deposit will be deducted fm the total dealer price, which in my case will not involve sales tax (out-of-state purchase; this will save me over $800). Stark will not charge dealers sales tax (tax TBD by dealer) but will on all others depending on state/country/VAT etc. (per Josh). I sent Stark an E-mail about this, and have yet to hear back. In light of this and the production / delivery-priority info below, I've changed my mind about getting my bike through a dealer and now think it is the best, quickest, and cheapest route.

Delivery Priority (approximate, TBD):
1st) Dealer/reviewer demos (worldwide? surely at least 100 bikes, maybe more)
2nd) Euro dealers: Josh predicted at least 500 Euro-dealer bikes, imo a big enough number to reveal & correct initial problems. Alta only made @ 700 bikes total.
3rd) All other dealers (as logistics permit)
4th) Online custom orders (dealer delivery preferred, drop-ship availability unknown)

Production: initial target @ 100 bikes/week, ramping up to whatever's doable

Demo display was non-functional (only showed the 2nd screen below w/bike pic, buttons didn't work).


Stark display video:

Misc:
KYB forks had 'STK' raised letters on LH-leg axle mount (I'll try to find out what this means, if anything)
Battery: 200 cells, 360V nominal, 420V max
Front brake numbers: Master Cylinder Brembo X10 1629, Brembo caliper A361 and A21
LHRB numbers: MC Formula FM10109-02, Brembo caliper 22 8468 and 21 2F
I'll research all brake numbers and report back if I find anything.