Did you find any solid numbers?
Yamaha YE-01
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B. FRANK
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i'm sorry i must have napped for a decade! did you say japanese don't do the best electrics? and it seems old yamahas are the bike that gets converted to electric most often. seems like a cool bike to me, i really like e.m. but i am too old to even think about trials anymore. yamaha does have a reputation for rushing products onto the market before they are ready, but they also have a rep for trying different things, some suck but some are AWESOME! time will tell.
Time will tell. You may be right about the European market, but in the USA, which we all know is the center of the MX universe, Stark is a little blip on the charts compared to Yamaha.
While KTM raced some 4Ts before Yamaha, it was Yamaha that produced the bike that stood the market on it's head and changed the sport.
DonCox
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If Yamaha wants to enter the Ebike market, they should follow some of what Stark is doing, but also listen to what the riders want. The weight is a killer. The Whoops at the first WSX killed the Starks, but they weren't the caliber rider as the lead riders. Yamaha has a perfectly good frame, get it to the power of the Stark. Smaller battery for specific uses, and a quick change battery. I have personally ridden conversions on most newer frames, and they handle good. Not my humble opinion, but pro riders really like them. I built an electric Pit bike for Kenny Roberts. I just messaged him and asked if he knows anyone in Yamaha working on these projects. I'll let you know what I can find out.
Erwin P
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Yamaha having a perfectly good frame will be of little help. Sure if it's just short AX or SX they can get away with a small ligt battery. But when entering MX they will need a battery at least the capacity of the Stark. That will not fit the YZ frame and if it does it will face even more weight issues than the Stark.
That YZ frame was designed for certain configurations and weight distributions. Removing fuel tank, exhaust etc and placing all that in the centre will upset that balance they found.
Making it quick swap will remove it from being a structural part, wich the rest of the frame needs to be strengthed for to compensate.
In the end clean sheet is the only way to make a serious contender to the Stark.
That YZ frame was designed for certain configurations and weight distributions. Removing fuel tank, exhaust etc and placing all that in the centre will upset that balance they found.
Making it quick swap will remove it from being a structural part, wich the rest of the frame needs to be strengthed for to compensate.
In the end clean sheet is the only way to make a serious contender to the Stark.
SInce the above makes sense I am surprised of the following:
Not saying that it's false, it just sounds odd.
The typical engine mounts on a motocross bikes are:
• one coaxial with the swingarm axle,
• one at the cylinder or cylinder head
• one or more at the crankcases
and according to a book I've read, that top point at cylinder or cylinder head especially changes completely both the flexibility and the way in which the frame vibrates. In that book, written by someone who has worked for reputable motorcycle manufacturers we all know, they say that the stiffness of the engine, when considered as part of the frame, is basically infinite and that top mount stiffens the frame a lot. I don't think that you can't use an ICE frame for an EV, I just think that you have to know what you're doing. Can you install an Amorge battery simulating the engine flexibility? I doubt it's so stiff.
Maybe @Marko_Flux can share his opinion about this: I've noticed that the Primo has a frame that looks like from ICEs and the battery does have some top mounts. Back then, his supermoto team also tried using a supermoto without an engine just for fun, maybe they've noticed that the frame was more flexible
:
All I know is my home built Don Cox recipe is stupid fast, handles great, at least 20 pounds lighter than the Varg, can swap the battery in 5-10 min (ie between motos or trail rides), 20-25 mile range agressive trail riding and can be built for same price as high powered Sur Ron type bikes. The bike carry’s the weight low so handles maybe the best I have ridden, perhaps a lucky co-incidence, but proves Don’s point.
The Varg is awesome, but I it’s the weight I don’t like. I had an Alta EXR which weighs about the same as the Varg and the thing wore me out.
Different tools for different jobs I guess.
The Varg is awesome, but I it’s the weight I don’t like. I had an Alta EXR which weighs about the same as the Varg and the thing wore me out.
Different tools for different jobs I guess.
Erwin P
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Just take any ICE and remove the bolts of the top mount. Even a novice can feel that.
Even hitting the frame with something makes a different sound.
Even hitting the frame with something makes a different sound.
DonCox
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People are racing YZ250F bikes and 450F with electric power trains. Practical experience says it works. Do you even ride a bike Erwin P? Here is a friend who races them in Florida with an A rider who wins on a YZ450F EBike. The wheels aren't falling off the bikes. They do 1 or 2 laps and swap the battery.
Here is a recent race where they didn't have it turned on for the start, and still won.
Here is another race with a more normal start.
This a company with a lot of race experience in Florida on Yamaha framed ebikes and racing it. xemx1.com
There is no perfect built bike. Stark will get more experience as they race more. All the major manufacturers have decades of making bike that work, and survive the rigor's of racing.
Here is a recent race where they didn't have it turned on for the start, and still won.
There is no perfect built bike. Stark will get more experience as they race more. All the major manufacturers have decades of making bike that work, and survive the rigor's of racing.
Erwin P
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I do ride quite a lott of bikes and mostly 2 times a week.
Spend 4 hours riding today actually.
Sure it does work. But non of those conversion bikes have been raced at the highest level MXGP, SX etc etc.
That's where any shortcomings show big time.
Spend 4 hours riding today actually.
Sure it does work. But non of those conversion bikes have been raced at the highest level MXGP, SX etc etc.
That's where any shortcomings show big time.
I have a lot of respect for what Don Cox and other electric wizards have been doing for years, great conversions and lots of happy and fast riders, no question about that.
But I get Erwin's point as well. Purely from a physics point of view, swapping a gas engine and fuel tank for an electric motor and its battery (plus hardware like BMS and so on), the weight distribution will change, the stiffness of the engine block/motor and battery block will change. It works with the standard frame but if it's the perfect frame for the gas bike, there's no reason it would also be the perfect frame for the electric bike with different characteristics. If you're thinking about designing an electric bike from the ground up to compete at the highest level you'd probably end up with a different frame because... physics.
It will be interesting to see if Honda and Yamaha first gen electric bikes do come with a frame borrowed from their gas cousins (like the current prototypes). And if so, will they stick with that for the 2nd gen...
But I get Erwin's point as well. Purely from a physics point of view, swapping a gas engine and fuel tank for an electric motor and its battery (plus hardware like BMS and so on), the weight distribution will change, the stiffness of the engine block/motor and battery block will change. It works with the standard frame but if it's the perfect frame for the gas bike, there's no reason it would also be the perfect frame for the electric bike with different characteristics. If you're thinking about designing an electric bike from the ground up to compete at the highest level you'd probably end up with a different frame because... physics.
It will be interesting to see if Honda and Yamaha first gen electric bikes do come with a frame borrowed from their gas cousins (like the current prototypes). And if so, will they stick with that for the 2nd gen...
Exactly: one thing is saying that it works, another is to state that, by doing a conversion, an average Joe like me can rely on a "bulletproof frame", like it should be better than a Varg with its newer design. That ICE frame has proven to be bulletproof for a different use.
Maybe some pros have liked some conversions, but they have probably liked those converted frames in a different way than if used for their intended purposes. And pros have liked the Varg, too.
I haven't seen pictures of this YE-01 without plastics nor of the Honda CR Electric, but they could have started from an ICE frame and then done some modifications that we don't see or notice.
Here are a couple of examples of what experienced people can do:
Some years ago I was a spectator of a race of the Supermoto World Championship and I noticed that a bike had an additional triple clamp, presumably to stiffen the fork.
On a magazine, I've read of a MXGP team who used steel cables run between the triple clamps to stiffen them.
I mean, probably such people would achieve something better than average Joe, converting a bike.
Can average Joe notice these differences? Well, some years ago a guy that became a friend of mine doing some supermoto trackdays with me invited me to use his 2000 CR 250 in a motocross track. My only experience in similar scenarios was using a supermoto in dirt sections of tracks and I had little of that experience. I was overtaken by everybody and I didn't even realize that the front tyre had gone flat. You may expect that, for such a noob, any frame would have felt right. Well, I found that 2000 CR 250 frame to be too stiff and when I went home I did some internet research and I found out that that frame was indeed notorious for being too stiff.
And just one last comment: from what I've seen, those conversions are so different from each other that the fact that some work well doesn't mean that if I do one myself it will be as successfull.
Maybe some pros have liked some conversions, but they have probably liked those converted frames in a different way than if used for their intended purposes. And pros have liked the Varg, too.
I haven't seen pictures of this YE-01 without plastics nor of the Honda CR Electric, but they could have started from an ICE frame and then done some modifications that we don't see or notice.
Here are a couple of examples of what experienced people can do:
Some years ago I was a spectator of a race of the Supermoto World Championship and I noticed that a bike had an additional triple clamp, presumably to stiffen the fork.
On a magazine, I've read of a MXGP team who used steel cables run between the triple clamps to stiffen them.
I mean, probably such people would achieve something better than average Joe, converting a bike.
Can average Joe notice these differences? Well, some years ago a guy that became a friend of mine doing some supermoto trackdays with me invited me to use his 2000 CR 250 in a motocross track. My only experience in similar scenarios was using a supermoto in dirt sections of tracks and I had little of that experience. I was overtaken by everybody and I didn't even realize that the front tyre had gone flat. You may expect that, for such a noob, any frame would have felt right. Well, I found that 2000 CR 250 frame to be too stiff and when I went home I did some internet research and I found out that that frame was indeed notorious for being too stiff.
And just one last comment: from what I've seen, those conversions are so different from each other that the fact that some work well doesn't mean that if I do one myself it will be as successfull.
DonCox
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Thanks guys for all the interesting points of view. There is a lot of diversity amongst all of us. My reason for building Electric Dirt bikes comes from riding dirt bikes for almost 60years, and having the great fortune to be able to still ride. I started building them 15 years ago because I worked on CT Scanners for EMI, Siemens, Toshiba and Canon. We had all the components for an electric dirt bike on our machines. The parts showed up, I had an 2008 KTM frame available and off went my first electric bike. It was really poor. I have probably built 20 others since then, and help numerous friends build more than that. They are a blast to ride. The OEMs probably won't build a purpose built electric, there just isn't the market yet. But if they have an idea to build something, they need to hear what is wanted. The Stark has put a stake in the ground as the standard for the competitive dirt bike in the major MX games. I am friends with Kenny Roberts, and he still has friends in Yamaha Japan, and he is going to ask a few questions for me. Maybe we can find out something. But most people on this forum are for the advancement of the electric dirt bike, because they can help keep open the riding areas. They don't have to be race bikes yet, but racing does promote sales. KTM has done a lot of good with their SX E-5 and Freeride bikes, those kids will want to ride and race on electrics. Lets hope the OEMs come out with something good when they do.
Erwin P
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I have no doubt @DonCox bikes are good at what they do. I also have no doubt this Yamaha will ride good. But there is a big difference between good enough and world class.
There is also a big difference between a purpose built bike for one purpose (SX or MX or woods riding etc etc or even for one persons needs as is often the case with home built) and building a bike for the broader audience. The Stark and whatever Yamaha is planning need stand the test to thousands of riders ranging from MX competition to leasure woods riding.
Had the Stark been a SX bike from the ground up i believe we would have seen different results. The battery could have been smaller and that would have worked all through the bike.
The Stark 1.0 does last too short in our sandy country. The higher level racers drain it in 20-25 minutes, wich is a serious issue in 20-30 minutes races. That has a 6.5kWh battery, there is no way Yamaha would have been able to get that in the setup we see.
There is also a big difference between a purpose built bike for one purpose (SX or MX or woods riding etc etc or even for one persons needs as is often the case with home built) and building a bike for the broader audience. The Stark and whatever Yamaha is planning need stand the test to thousands of riders ranging from MX competition to leasure woods riding.
Had the Stark been a SX bike from the ground up i believe we would have seen different results. The battery could have been smaller and that would have worked all through the bike.
The Stark 1.0 does last too short in our sandy country. The higher level racers drain it in 20-25 minutes, wich is a serious issue in 20-30 minutes races. That has a 6.5kWh battery, there is no way Yamaha would have been able to get that in the setup we see.
This is an interesting conversation, I think at the moment e-bikes (even the best like the Stark) can’t match the range of ICE and highest level pro’s can “out ride” the bike by over heating but I think this is missing the point.
Motocross has gotten off the hook expensive, does everyone need the performance and cost associated with current 4 strokes. Sur Ron made a whole new market by offering reasonable price and performance and that segment is exploding - kind of like MX 70’s and 80’s.
My thought is if an OEM can take product and with some very basic modifications get the performance level of the Don Cox conversion then sell it at a more reasonable price I think they would have sales.
I think this would allow riding in noise restricted places and people would find ways to use them for utility like short commutes and I think a new class would evolve in MX.
Motocross has gotten off the hook expensive, does everyone need the performance and cost associated with current 4 strokes. Sur Ron made a whole new market by offering reasonable price and performance and that segment is exploding - kind of like MX 70’s and 80’s.
My thought is if an OEM can take product and with some very basic modifications get the performance level of the Don Cox conversion then sell it at a more reasonable price I think they would have sales.
I think this would allow riding in noise restricted places and people would find ways to use them for utility like short commutes and I think a new class would evolve in MX.
I haven't seen any issues with overheating in pro races (though that would likely be the case if they raced in deep sand).
Herbreteau raced his Stark to 6th in France MX Elite MX1 championship finishing all 25 min + 2 laps races.
Starks would probably be a couple of laps short in MXGP or AMA Nationals, don't think overheating would be the issue there.
Agreed about electrics opening up the sport, it's more accessible, if you can ride a bicycle you can ride an electric dirt bike, plus adjustable power so no need to switch bikes that often, and reasonably priced entry bikes to start having fun on 2 wheels.
And some tracks are already taking the opportunity to open more days with electrics-only sessions during the week.
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Erwin P
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We've seen quite a lott of overheating with the Gen1 in deep sand, although it got better over updates.
I do however think ALL serious adult MX bikes (not competition, but just serious MX tracks) need at least what Stark offers in their 48HP. Otherwise it's just underpowered. Stark may have gone overboard with over the top suspension, but it will need at least the basic 48mm fork setup and shock. Think Sachs ZF or other Open Cartridge as bare minimum. And by that time... Why not spend that last €1000 and have it properly done like the Stark MX.
It's like seeing the occacional Beta Xtrainer show up at the track. Even the very novice outgrow those bikes in no time.
I do however think ALL serious adult MX bikes (not competition, but just serious MX tracks) need at least what Stark offers in their 48HP. Otherwise it's just underpowered. Stark may have gone overboard with over the top suspension, but it will need at least the basic 48mm fork setup and shock. Think Sachs ZF or other Open Cartridge as bare minimum. And by that time... Why not spend that last €1000 and have it properly done like the Stark MX.
It's like seeing the occacional Beta Xtrainer show up at the track. Even the very novice outgrow those bikes in no time.
