A little bit about my 2008 YZ250F Electric Conversion

[Mark XEMX]

I personal, would not go with the Two controller Split stator setup for a dirt bike. But I would like to see it in action.

As was stated above by Dain_SSE, If you can get your hands on a Sevcon Gen4 size 6 and the IXXAT and the license I would start there.
Slightly smaller than the Kelly and will fit into the space you have, just fine.

Since I last sent a personal email to you, I spent another hour with the engineer on the programming the Gen4. It is Significantly better on
the low end and have plenty of top end as well and only went from a 50 to 52 rear and stayed with a 13 front sprocket.
We changed things to levels I have been very leery of doing as I didn't want to brick the controller. It is finicky. Still have not been able to
get the Hall Throttle to work with this controller, but the over all performance is better.

I am testing the Curtis Controllers we had custom made for these type motors. Although the total Amp rating is 450
I believe this is a solid 450 plus for short bursts. It is smaller and lighter than the Kelly or Sevcon, but the cost will be
around $1300. I think these are a better controller for the abuse they will be going through, and Curtis has been much
better to work with so far. Just waiting for the motor to be returned from the Dyno test.

I will let you all know how it compares.
www.xemx1.com

Mark

 

[Dain_SSE]

Trying to run two controllers you are just setting yourself up for torture - which some people enjoy so to each his own! I bought mine from digikey for I believe $375.

 

[Mark911]

I think I heard that Curtis using DTC rather than FOC. If you have a preference you might want to verify this.

 

[Philip]

Then this weekend I got in a drag race with an ALTA Mode 4 and a KTM 350EXC, newer, and I was 3rd.

The KTM was 2nd.
The Alta was too fast, it pulled a wheelie, it was not a fair race!

 

[DonCox]

Yea Phillip, you wheelied away from him and me. It was very clear that you and the ALTA were faster. And @Mark911, I don't know which is better, DTC (Direct Torque Control) or FOC (Field Oriented Control), I think the DTC is supposed to be noisier. I notice that when an ALTA moves away from me, I can hear the controller, and I can't on mine. What is the ALTA using? I sure would like to have the smoothness of the ALTA thru the powerband. Does anyone have the schematic for the ALTA controller. Would it work in the 100V range? I built my own controllers in the beginning, and learned a lot. 10KHZ is loud, and I couldn't get the IGBTs to last. It squealed like a pig and didn't go far. Maybe I don't need the schematic. Just buy one of the working controllers. Mark911, your new bike rips from what I hear. Sevcon 72V 550A . Are you going to try the BAC8000? I would be really curious on that. You want a test bed, I'll bring mine over and it would mount easily. That would knock off 5lbs off my bike. Bob in Yorba Linda should have his BAC8000 back from ASI soon, and on a very similar motor, ME1304, so we should know soon how that works.

 

[Mark911]

I've got a BAC8000 just sitting right now. I'm planning on running it in the Yamaha as soon as I complete all my Sevcon testing. The Sevcon has so many bells and whistles it's taking forever to try all the various combinations and assess the performance both on the dyno and on the track. I'm closing in on the parameters that make the biggest difference in the "smoothness" of the power delivery but it's still a compromise between good throttle response and excess wheelspin.

The ASI is pretty simple by comparison, but it doesn't accept sin/cosin encoders so I need to adapt an UVW to my motor first.

The biggest difference with the Sevcon is whether the motor is IPM or SM. They both have their own unique set of algorithms built into the PMAC controller firmware, some settings work for one and not the other. The Hawk motors (like mine) are all SM.

I've attached my latest tune with the Alta graph (alta red, MSC tan). Note: all the actual dyno numbers are not shown intentionally. When Matt Cerami mentioned in the video that the Alta felt stronger down low but the Yamaha pulled longer he was spot on. The 300plus Alta volts and subsequent lower voltage sag results in a significant torque advantage below mid speed. After mid speed the Alta begins to fade fast as the Yamaha continues to build and pull. By 3/4 speed the Yamaha has the advantage which continues to widen. Peak HP is pretty close (at least compared to the torque), but the Alta has a large "area under the curve" advantage. I haven't track tested this tune yet but plan to in the next couple days. The main issues with past tunes (more powerful/torquey low end) was the initial "hit" off throttle was simply too brutal/uncontrollable making getting on the gas (electrons?) hard in a truly scary way. Hopefully, the slower ramping will make the bike easier, although less exciting, to ride fast.

 

[Philip]

View attachment 6725

Did you build your own DIY dyno, Mark? Is it hydraulic/electric/inertial?

This red Alta curve falls off way more than what the DynoJet 200 was showing during its ~6 second run, but it matches what I feel at the track when the 450's blow past me on long straightaways.

 

[Mark911]

No, it's a "name brand" inertial dyno with DIY upgraded software from a company in Australia. On the drum the Alta will almost tear the knobbies off at lower speeds, but it does fall off. Surprisingly, it's not uncontrollable on the track as we all know. I think that's due to a good choice of both torque and rpm ramp rates. I think it might even be speed (mph) related, with higher ramping at higher speeds when traction isn't as much an issue.

 

[Mark XEMX]

I think I heard that Curtis using DTC rather than FOC. If you have a preference you might want to verify this.

I will find out very soon, and will let you know. I have the Sevcon set up on the test bench and the Curtis will be test run against it. Hopefully by next week.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

TM4 TautronicTM | Dana TM4

Claims to supply the inverter to Zero motorcycles. Maybe the new SRS bikes? I think all the older models use sevcons...

Also to address my own curiosity, this was the only place i found selling the sevcon software (didn;t try Borg Warner directly though)
ThunderStruck Motors - Sevcon Gen4 Calibrators

 

[riverin]

TM4 TautronicTM | Dana TM4

Claims to supply the inverter to Zero motorcycles. Maybe the new SRS bikes? I think all the older models use sevcons...

Also to address my own curiosity, this was the only place i found selling the sevcon software (didn;t try Borg Warner directly though)
ThunderStruck Motors - Sevcon Gen4 Calibrators

I wanted to buy the Tautronic controller for my project but they dont sell to individuals. It wont even let you send an email.

 

[Rashid510]

TM4 TautronicTM | Dana TM4

Claims to supply the inverter to Zero motorcycles. Maybe the new SRS bikes? I think all the older models use sevcons...

Also to address my own curiosity, this was the only place i found selling the sevcon software (didn;t try Borg Warner directly though)
ThunderStruck Motors - Sevcon Gen4 Calibrators

SDS and XMX platform used Sevcon Gen4s...(size 4 on the FX and Size 6 on the SR/DSR)..Sevcon did a special Gen 4.5 controller for Zero so they could bridge between the next gen controller (slightly more powerful Mosfets) then Sevcon got bought by Borg Warner.

The SRF platform motor controllers started off being made by SME (Italian company) which got bought out by Dana and became part of the TM4 Line. You can try to get a controller from a Zero Dealer...but it will be preconfigured to a Zero...but its an option technically.

 

[Mark XEMX]

I have reached out to Dana about the TM4 controllers. I did get a response, but only that they
would get back to us. I let you know if they respond again.

 

[Dain_SSE]

In my opinion the controller isn't the significant bottleneck in the system... the gen4 S6 works fine - there isn't a perfect motor out there yet that fits in the available space that delivers the proper torque constant needed (I'd prefer .3 Nm/A if I could get it?). The ME1304 is around .12-.13 which is why it needs a reduction before the chain OR a huge reduction at the primary. I had the SSE450A out at Cedar Lake arena last weekend and I was easily faster on my 450F since I could stomp down to 1st gear and never got out of 2nd. Having significantly more motor torque/amp would help my bike A LOT, may go to an ME1507 if I can make it fit.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

AF1 Racing. ZERO SR 75-7R MOTOR REPLACEMENT KIT - ZM12-08035

Perhaps these zero motors are actually available. Also, the parker motor in the lightfighter bike doesnt look that huge.

 

[DonCox]

In my opinion the controller isn't the significant bottleneck in the system... the gen4 S6 works fine - there isn't a perfect motor out there yet that fits in the available space that delivers the proper torque constant needed (I'd prefer .3 Nm/A if I could get it?). The ME1304 is around .12-.13 which is why it needs a reduction before the chain OR a huge reduction at the primary. I had the SSE450A out at Cedar Lake arena last weekend and I was easily faster on my 450F since I could stomp down to 1st gear and never got out of 2nd. Having significantly more motor torque/amp would help my bike A LOT, may go to an ME1507 if I can make it fit.

Have you run your SSE against an Alta? Or have you had your SSE on a dyno. I have the ME1302, and my buddy Bob has the ME1304. I've never looked at the torque constant before, they are close to the same, .13, and .15, but the 1302 has more windings per stator, which says that you can push more current and voltage.
I am probably going to try a Sevcon, but in the interim I may get a chance to try Bob Caspers ASI BAC8000. Your bike looks like it rips pretty good, you should be getting 40+KW out. I geared my setup up and got more rideability out of the bike. I have 1.52 on the primary and, originally 12 x 54 on the output side. I went to 14 x 54. Doesn't the ME1507 have the same torque constant? The ME1616 has .33Nm per A, but both are heavier and bigger. What is that spec on the Zero motor 75-7R.

 

[Dain_SSE]

The ME1616 and ME1507 have the same interenals, same torque constant as far as I understand. The ME1507 isn't quite as bit or heavy as the ME1616 and would allow me to use a more normal reduction 11/60? instead of 10/66. I haven't run my bike against an Alta, the only bike I'm interested in comparing it to is my YZ450F and it's a little slower off the bottom end which is something I'd like to remedy. Going to an ME1302 might give me a small boost off the bottom end, and would bolt in. I will need to do significant tear up to get the ME1507 to fit, so a 1302 may be a good option. Your total ratio interestingly enough comes out to 6.58:1 from motor to wheel... where I'm running a 10T/66T so 6.6:1 - we have basically identical ratios. I've heard the Zero 75-7R is a refined ME1507, so that would also be in interesting option!

 

[DonCox]

The ME1616 and ME1507 have the same interenals, same torque constant as far as I understand. The ME1507 isn't quite as bit or heavy as the ME1616 and would allow me to use a more normal reduction 11/60? instead of 10/66. I haven't run my bike against an Alta, the only bike I'm interested in comparing it to is my YZ450F and it's a little slower off the bottom end which is something I'd like to remedy. Going to an ME1302 might give me a small boost off the bottom end, and would bolt in. I will need to do significant tear up to get the ME1507 to fit, so a 1302 may be a good option. Your total ratio interestingly enough comes out to 6.58:1 from motor to wheel... where I'm running a 10T/66T so 6.6:1 - we have basically identical ratios. I've heard the Zero 75-7R is a refined ME1507, so that would also be in interesting option!

I think your right on the 75-7R motor being a ME1507. Here is a link to some info. Z-Force Motor - Unofficial Zero Manual They use it air cooled up to 60KW. The ME1507 and ME1616 are both about the same size? There are so many different opinions on the specs though. Thunderstuck say the ME1507 . 22Nm/A, Electromotorsports says .15Nm/A and says that the two are the same internally and the ME1616 has .33Nm/A. They are bigger and heavier but put out more HP. There is a good article on the theory of SPM and IPM ( surface or Internal permanent magnets) in that Zero manual link above.

 

[DonCox]

I have had the Yamaha out to the track almost every weekend. It is still running pretty good, except for the new problem that happened this weekend. My motor is a water cooled motor, that I haven't hooked the water cooling system yet. I have the hoses in and the pump in, and a radiator that I can mount, but it's not all hooked up. I live in the desert. It was about 90ºF this weekend. and I have the controller set to shut off the motor at 100ºC. It had never shut off before. But it did this weekend. I was on lap 9 and it stopped. After a few minutes to cool, I was able to get back to the pits. I got my bluetooth connection to the controllers. (Motor Controller, and Smart BMS)
When I got to the track, the controller was 16ºC. After 6 laps, the Controller was 41ºC, the battery was 35ºC, and the motor was 86ºC.
I went back out after a bit of a rest, and 3 laps in it stopped. Got back to measure after a few minutes , but the Controller was now 39ºC, and the Battery was 37º, and the motor was now 95ºC. It had cooled down from when it first stopped. At first it wouldn't come back on, but finally did.
The week before it was cooler, and I ran a total of 15 laps, and it did not overheat, but I did not look at the temps
This week I am hooking up the water cooling system. I hope to get to a track this weekend. More number to follow

 

[DonCox]

That is an awesome effort - so after a 15 mile ride in sand you had 60% battery left - that seems like much better range than the Alta - I typically get 20 miles range before the Alta starts blinking.

How long to charge the 3 packs at 110?

I am toying with a similar build using a 2006 KX 250 chassis - the frame is chromoly so can be welded easier - it’s a modern perimeter frame so should handle well.

One thing I did on my electric bike ( motoped similar to a Sur Ron ) is I had a battery case 3D printed from plastic - it bolts to an aluminum base buts very sturdy and you can do things with the shape that is not possible with metal.

Thinking I would copy the drive train / battery / controller combo you came up with as I personally like the idea of using off the shelf components.

Well done my friend

I am rebuilding my 2008 KTM and will have a complete mount kit for the chromoly KTM frame, including battery mounting parts. It might fit your KX frame. I rebuilt the complete system that I have had running for over 5 years, am selling that. I am building a new setup for that bike and I am going to sell the whole bike, so I can fund a newer bike.
The kit that I am selling, will accept a lot of Motoenergy motors. ME0909, ME1003, ME1004, ME1114 and ME1115 might fit, and now the newer motor ME1803 should fit, plus others. I can sell this motor(ME1003) with the kit and the controller if someone is interested in that. This motor controller can give you 48V 500A brushed DC motor power (about 30-33HP. The ME1004 plus can give about 40hp. The ME1803 can give you 6600rpm at 96V at the rated 400 Amps ( about 50HP) or 8000rpm at 120V at up to 400A. I don't know if this gear reduction system could handle that, but it's there... I would go to a gear system for that.
I will be selling the KTM electric soon also. It is California street legal KTM 250SXF frame. It currently has a Headway LiPo4 battery pack 48 15AH cells configured as a 48V 45AH pack for 600A capable system. It has the ME1003 and Kelly 72V500A controller.
I am going to post all this in the for sale section also, but thought you might be interested.