AMA and Electric Motorcycles in AMA races

[fsfs]

I have been working on EV stuff for about 20 years now. For anyone interested here are my thoughts on safety related things:

1) Biggest worry is mechanical injury. As a design engineer for the drive system I work together with people assembling, testing, and maintaining the prototypes -- people such as mechanics who are used to combustion machines. One of the projects I worked on is a tunnel rescue vehicle in Croatia:

While I was working on it there was a guy underneath it close to the drive shaft. I said "I'm gonna power up the system now, don't be underneath the vehicle anymore." He said "Why? Is it gonna shock me." I said "No, it won't shock you, but if I made a software error it might wrap you around the drive shaft." Remember Brian's videos where the cooling fan was running "for no reason?" Well, now you know the reason; everybody involved still has all their fingers. The bike "dropping out of gear" when not moving is the reason why the fan no longer constantly runs. Anyone notice that those two changes came in the same software update?

2) Second biggest is fire. I don't have access to statistics but I think a large percentage of e-bike fires are caused by a run away charger. However, fires can happen even when not charging. Once the fire starts the battery will become a chemical oxygen generator and there is little that can be done to put it out. The tunnel rescue vehicle above uses LiFePO4 cells for that reason; they start releasing oxygen at a much higher temperature than more energy dense chemistries. However, I am less concerned about fire on a bike (you just get off) than a car. People have been burned alive in car fires because they could not get out, even in gasoline powered cars -- Woman Killed After Car Locks Her Inside and Catches Fire | Entrepreneur

3) Electrocution is a distant third. Fear of this comes mainly from people not understanding the flow of electricity. Let me explain:

For you to get electrocuted you need to be part of the circuit. Electricity must flow _through_ you. Now with grid power the system is earthed/grounded. This means that you only have to touch a conductor at _one_ point for you to get electrocuted as the electricity with flow from the point where you touched the conductor, through your body, out your feet and into the earth. The _earth_ completes the circuit. For EVs with high voltage the main battery is not connected with the chassis. This isolation is an integral part of the safety of such systems and it is monitored. If you are doing your own system you can buy a board such as this:

The ISOMETER® iso-F1 IR155-3203/-3204 monitors the insulation resistance between the insulated and active HV-conductors of an electrical drive system (Un = DC 0 V…1000 V) and the reference earth (chassis ground > Kl.31). ISOMETER® IR155-3203/IR155-3204

I've done my fair share of work on live 300V+ systems for close to 20 years. I'm still alive for a reason.

Just about everyone understands being burned or having your fingers go between a chain and sprocket, but most people don't understand the flow of electricity so that brings both unfounded fear and unfortunately sometimes mistakes.

Anyways, those are my two cents.

 

[Swank171]

You make some good points but Stark not making an Enduro version cannot explain the FIM decision, they knew from the start that there is no Enduro version yet (Taddy is helping developing it), they have authorized the Varg then rescinded their authorization less than 24h before the first race. Shamefully the FIM did not bother to provide an explanation but this cannot be it since they had been working with Stark for so long (lanyard killswitch, dedicated fire marshal and so on), they did not suddenly discover there is no Enduro version.

About battery fires it is definitely something to take into account. For instance MotoE had one fire, burnt all the dedicated pit and bikes, just before their first season, but that's it. They do have trained marshals, dedicated safety procedures and of course separate pits. There have been no electric or fire incident from their 5 years of racing and hundreds of crashes. FIM and AMA may have to add some safety training and provide separate pits or charging station for electrics but that is no big deal (just make them charge in the parking lot outside of the Enduro arena).

Above all these points cannot explain the FIM banning the Varg at the last minute since it was all foreseeable... and electrics have been legal to race in FIM super enduro and AMA Enduro cross for years (Alta even podium in Enduro cross). If it had anything to do with safety, battery fire, noise, whatever, the FIM could just say so. Still no official reason provided for their last minute change of mind makes it a murky business, and a bad look for the sport.

Enduro21 has a great coverage on this:

Say What? Riders quotes and notes from 2024 SuperEnduro Rnd 1 in France

What Billy, Jonny and Will had to say after the podium and the big talking points after round one of the 2024 SuperEnduro World Championship in Lievin, France – plus more on the FIM’s decision to stop Stark and Taddy Blazusiak from racing.

enduro21.com

Initial concerns around the Varg meeting regulations were all met by Stark who say they did everything and more to conform to the FIM demands. So too did the French organisers and the SuperEnduro series promoters who were certainly ready for the big exclusive. But in the end the FIM changed their rulebook less than 24 hours before the technical inspection opened in the Stade Couvert.
The regulations have included electric powered motorcycles for several years, since KTM in fact fielded a Freeride, and they remained in the FIM documents as late as Thursday (which was the last time Enduro21 took a look). But late Thursday night the rulebook had suddenly been updated to show the open categorisation (E1, E2 and E3 for all classes) no longer included electric motorcycles.

And follow up articles:

Pro Bike: Closer look at the hottest topic right now, Taddy Blazusiak’s Stark Varg

Enduro21 takes a closer look at the hottest topic in enduro right now, the Stark Varg electric motorcycle Taddy Blazusiak was set to debut at round one of the 2024 SuperEnduro World Championship in France.

enduro21.com

5 Minutes…Taddy Blazusiak talks Stark – why he made the move and what the Varg is like to ride

Enduro21 catches five with Taddy Blazusiak to talk about the shock move to Stark Future to race the SuperEnduro World Championship (that was the intention!) and develop the Varg electric off-road motorcycle for enduro.

enduro21.com

Well said!

 

[Swank171]

I have been working on EV stuff for about 20 years now. For anyone interested here are my thoughts on safety related things:

1) Biggest worry is mechanical injury. As a design engineer for the drive system I work together with people assembling, testing, and maintaining the prototypes -- people such as mechanics who are used to combustion machines. One of the projects I worked on is a tunnel rescue vehicle in Croatia:
View attachment 10793
While I was working on it there was a guy underneath it close to the drive shaft. I said "I'm gonna power up the system now, don't be underneath the vehicle anymore." He said "Why? Is it gonna shock me." I said "No, it won't shock you, but if I made a software error it might wrap you around the drive shaft." Remember Brian's videos where the cooling fan was running "for no reason?" Well, now you know the reason; everybody involved still has all their fingers. The bike "dropping out of gear" when not moving is the reason why the fan no longer constantly runs. Anyone notice that those two changes came in the same software update?

2) Second biggest is fire. I don't have access to statistics but I think a large percentage of e-bike fires are caused by a run away charger. However, fires can happen even when not charging. Once the fire starts the battery will become a chemical oxygen generator and there is little that can be done to put it out. The tunnel rescue vehicle above uses LiFePO4 cells for that reason; they start releasing oxygen at a much higher temperature than more energy dense chemistries. However, I am less concerned about fire on a bike (you just get off) than a car. People have been burned alive in car fires because they could not get out, even in gasoline powered cars -- Woman Killed After Car Locks Her Inside and Catches Fire | Entrepreneur

3) Electrocution is a distant third. Fear of this comes mainly from people not understanding the flow of electricity. Let me explain:

For you to get electrocuted you need to be part of the circuit. Electricity must flow _through_ you. Now with grid power the system is earthed/grounded. This means that you only have to touch a conductor at _one_ point for you to get electrocuted as the electricity with flow from the point where you touched the conductor, through your body, out your feet and into the earth. The _earth_ completes the circuit. For EVs with high voltage the main battery is not connected with the chassis. This isolation is an integral part of the safety of such systems and it is monitored. If you are doing your own system you can buy a board such as this:

The ISOMETER® iso-F1 IR155-3203/-3204 monitors the insulation resistance between the insulated and active HV-conductors of an electrical drive system (Un = DC 0 V…1000 V) and the reference earth (chassis ground > Kl.31). ISOMETER® IR155-3203/IR155-3204
View attachment 10794
I've done my fair share of work on live 300V+ systems for close to 20 years. I'm still alive for a reason.

Just about everyone understands being burned or having your fingers go between a chain and sprocket, but most people don't understand the flow of electricity so that brings both unfounded fear and unfortunately sometimes mistakes.

Anyways, those are my two cents.

This is all well said. The last part here is essential for understanding safety in general around all electrical!

Been a lineman for over 10 years and understating this is more than just electrical vehicle safety but also general safety. If you ever see wires or poles down please don’t be the person to walk up on it because this same principle works between your feet with wire down. just walking close to it can kill you from your right foot to left based on ground resistance.

I know it’s off topic but knowledge is power. I see it too often when we get to down lines or car hit poles/storm people will just walk up to vehicles and become another casualty.

 

[UKLee]

I have been working on EV stuff for about 20 years now. For anyone interested here are my thoughts on safety related things:

1) Biggest worry is mechanical injury. As a design engineer for the drive system I work together with people assembling, testing, and maintaining the prototypes -- people such as mechanics who are used to combustion machines. One of the projects I worked on is a tunnel rescue vehicle in Croatia:
View attachment 10793
While I was working on it there was a guy underneath it close to the drive shaft. I said "I'm gonna power up the system now, don't be underneath the vehicle anymore." He said "Why? Is it gonna shock me." I said "No, it won't shock you, but if I made a software error it might wrap you around the drive shaft." Remember Brian's videos where the cooling fan was running "for no reason?" Well, now you know the reason; everybody involved still has all their fingers. The bike "dropping out of gear" when not moving is the reason why the fan no longer constantly runs. Anyone notice that those two changes came in the same software update?

2) Second biggest is fire. I don't have access to statistics but I think a large percentage of e-bike fires are caused by a run away charger. However, fires can happen even when not charging. Once the fire starts the battery will become a chemical oxygen generator and there is little that can be done to put it out. The tunnel rescue vehicle above uses LiFePO4 cells for that reason; they start releasing oxygen at a much higher temperature than more energy dense chemistries. However, I am less concerned about fire on a bike (you just get off) than a car. People have been burned alive in car fires because they could not get out, even in gasoline powered cars -- Woman Killed After Car Locks Her Inside and Catches Fire | Entrepreneur

3) Electrocution is a distant third. Fear of this comes mainly from people not understanding the flow of electricity. Let me explain:

For you to get electrocuted you need to be part of the circuit. Electricity must flow _through_ you. Now with grid power the system is earthed/grounded. This means that you only have to touch a conductor at _one_ point for you to get electrocuted as the electricity with flow from the point where you touched the conductor, through your body, out your feet and into the earth. The _earth_ completes the circuit. For EVs with high voltage the main battery is not connected with the chassis. This isolation is an integral part of the safety of such systems and it is monitored. If you are doing your own system you can buy a board such as this:

The ISOMETER® iso-F1 IR155-3203/-3204 monitors the insulation resistance between the insulated and active HV-conductors of an electrical drive system (Un = DC 0 V…1000 V) and the reference earth (chassis ground > Kl.31). ISOMETER® IR155-3203/IR155-3204
View attachment 10794
I've done my fair share of work on live 300V+ systems for close to 20 years. I'm still alive for a reason.

Just about everyone understands being burned or having your fingers go between a chain and sprocket, but most people don't understand the flow of electricity so that brings both unfounded fear and unfortunately sometimes mistakes.

Anyways, those are my two cents.

So is it possible to get electrocuted from a stark?
First to admit I know next to nothing about electrics but I do know electric can kill you so you can forgive people not in the know for giving it a healthy respect, Why do moto E race bikes and F1 cars have these warning lights? So the grounding thing is the reason F1 drivers have to jump down from the car not step down when the electrical warning light is on?

 

[Beagle]

Stark made a nice bittersweet video of their FIM super enduro adventure so far.

This shows well that Stark did jump through all the hoops just for the FIM to pull the rug from under them at the last minute.

Good to see they are making more noise about this, it cannot make things worse for them anyway.

 

[Number Six]

FIM = spineless hypocrites. All these sanctioning bodies shout from the hilltops about 'growing the sport' .. & then they cave under the least bit of pressure & exclude one of the very things that offer new opportunities for more participation & additional venues. Isn't that the definition of growing the sport ?

Hooray for Stark Future, sure there's been delays & some mis-steps & thats hard for the public to take given the impatient / instant gratification world we live in.
But I like their style , keep grinding Stark.
.

 

[Drtjumper]

Roger DeCoster was the main one who slammed the door on Alta for SX and MX in the United States. After the Stark hung with the big boys with an inferior rider (to current racing main event pros) at RedBull straight rhythm he went on a crusade to keep them out of bothering SX and MX stating the power advantage they have, being clutchless thus no worry about flame outs/stalling as well as in mud races them not overheating. Would not surprise me one bit that this has Roger's name all over it. Add in the fact that KTM, Yamaha and Honda are ALL currently working on their own versions to compete with the Stark and you can see the writing kn the wall. These rules will 100% change when 2 of the heavy hitters have their bikes out. Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have a gentleman's deal to release their bikes all around the same time to coincide with a rule change. Similar to the gentleman's agreement the Japenese had in the 90's and early 2000's with power ratings of their sports cars.

 

[Philip]

Yay!!! This is exactly what the AMA/FIM/KTM have been afraid of, LOL!

History being made with @jackbrunell155 taking the first Arenacross Victory in Round 2 of @arenacrossuk + taking the championship lead

It seems to be possible without fire!

electricdirtriders.com

 

[Jocke_D]

As I understand it the official reason was because it was not an enduro bike meaning it does not come with the documents to make it road legal, not sure about in the USA but over here in the UK the ktm enduro bikes come with loads of emission stuff on them and the bike will hardly run. The dealers then remove all this stuff so the customer can use the bike, not sure how legal this is and it seems pointless but that is the way around the emissions laws. Might be about type approval also?

The noise thing is BS if they think it is a problem they should make all the MX bikes use full standard enduro exhausts then they might hear the electric bikes ok and maybe still have some tracks left to use not all been shut down due to noise.

For what it is worth I think there could be issues with the electric bikes just look at moto E they are very carefull with crashed bikes which have warning lights to say if they are safe or not, if it is not safe they stop the race and bring in a skid steer to move the bike and marshalls any where near the bike have thick rubber gloves face screens and these lith-ex fire extinguishers which I am told are next to usless but the best there is and ticks a box!
As I understand it racing an electric bike at a MX event then putting it on charge between motos is the best way of building up heat in the battery which increases the chance of a lithium battery fire, if one goes up in flames and takes other riders equipment with it whilst on charge in the pits there is going to be big problems with the insurance.

Would someone with more knowlage than me tell me....
What are the chances of a battery fire?
Does the battery in a stark have enough power to kill you or do you harm?
Is it possible for another riders foot peg to smash the starks very exposed battery case and give him an electric shock?

I thought Stark would have had all this sorted out before going in to production but clearly not, it could be we have been sold bikes that are not fit for purpose.

Sweden calling...

First some interesting (I hope) info about how it works here.
All Austrian made knobby tires bikes (>150cc) are road legal here like any R1 or Goldwing just like you say. We also have a nice way of getting un-homologated bikes through registration. But it comes with some big BUTs.
If a bike has a manufacturers certificate AND is on the national organizations (SVEMO) list of bikes they say are ok AND passes gates of the normal inspection (like DEKRA in Germany and MOT-stations in GB) then we get a license plate. BUT we can only ride to and from practise and races (and also during practise/race of course). We don't have to have indicators and some other stuff but we do need front and rear lights.
This was a way to get rally cars and enduro bikes legal for competition 'cause they some times need to be on normal roads during practise/race. The Varg IS on the list but we are yet to convince Stark to give us the manufacturers certificate (it only says that a bike with a certain VIN is made by them basically so shouldn't be a big thing).
If Stark wants to race and registration is an issue this is a way forward. Register all bikes in Sweden and race where ever, or at least in the EU

Regarding what stopped Taddy I understand it as it was only a matter of the front light just had to look like an enduro bike. Look at Billys bike, it seem to have a printed picture of a front light when doing Superenduro. The Suzuki that runs in Open class looks like he has a KTM front light. Just like in SBK they have to have a "standard headlight look".

We have a new "series in the series" for Supermoto for -24 for electric bikes. We are allowed to enter all races and get to count points in 2 out of 3 motos (first and last) for a race day to be able to charge properly in between.
I did the final race of Swedish nationals back in September. A race day is P, P, TQ, Lunch break, Moto1, Moto2, Final. Had to charge as much as possible between every session to make it. Ended up with 17% at the end of the day. Only two classes so just some 30min between sessions. Had no issues with over heating. Did see some power loss in the end of each moto. Don't know it was due to SOC or heat.
There are enduro races every weekend and Vargs are quite often present. This weekend there were seven of them in a race down south. So far it seems like almost all disciplines are accepting us (haven't heard anything about MX). Some local organizers hide behind the regulations that say that charging must take place in a special part of the paddock.


Sorry for a post that's basically ranting. Hope there are some things that was interesting

 

[Redbull]

Sweden calling...

First some interesting (I hope) info about how it works here.
All Austrian made knobby tires bikes (>150cc) are road legal here like any R1 or Goldwing just like you say. We also have a nice way of getting un-homologated bikes through registration. But it comes with some big BUTs.
If a bike has a manufacturers certificate AND is on the national organizations (SVEMO) list of bikes they say are ok AND passes gates of the normal inspection (like DEKRA in Germany and MOT-stations in GB) then we get a license plate. BUT we can only ride to and from practise and races (and also during practise/race of course). We don't have to have indicators and some other stuff but we do need front and rear lights.
This was a way to get rally cars and enduro bikes legal for competition 'cause they some times need to be on normal roads during practise/race. The Varg IS on the list but we are yet to convince Stark to give us the manufacturers certificate (it only says that a bike with a certain VIN is made by them basically so shouldn't be a big thing).
If Stark wants to race and registration is an issue this is a way forward. Register all bikes in Sweden and race where ever, or at least in the EU

Regarding what stopped Taddy I understand it as it was only a matter of the front light just had to look like an enduro bike. Look at Billys bike, it seem to have a printed picture of a front light when doing Superenduro. The Suzuki that runs in Open class looks like he has a KTM front light. Just like in SBK they have to have a "standard headlight look".

We have a new "series in the series" for Supermoto for -24 for electric bikes. We are allowed to enter all races and get to count points in 2 out of 3 motos (first and last) for a race day to be able to charge properly in between.
I did the final race of Swedish nationals back in September. A race day is P, P, TQ, Lunch break, Moto1, Moto2, Final. Had to charge as much as possible between every session to make it. Ended up with 17% at the end of the day. Only two classes so just some 30min between sessions. Had no issues with over heating. Did see some power loss in the end of each moto. Don't know it was due to SOC or heat.
There are enduro races every weekend and Vargs are quite often present. This weekend there were seven of them in a race down south. So far it seems like almost all disciplines are accepting us (haven't heard anything about MX). Some local organizers hide behind the regulations that say that charging must take place in a special part of the paddock.


Sorry for a post that's basically ranting. Hope there are some things that was interesting

It is true, Billy Bolt's bike doesn't (or didn't previously) have a real light during superenduros. Only a sticker.

"There are no lights on the factory bikes these days, just a sticker inside the headlight lens. “It’s just the motocross wiring loom under there too because we really don’t need all the enduro lights and wiring, it’s just something else to smash,” Lee (Edmondson - Husqvarna mechanic) concludes.

 

[mike61]

You are right. Not only Bolts bike has a fake headlight some of the others too.
Sticker or only the plastic screen of the lamp.

We supposed that some are MX bikes with lamps!?.

I met Billy Bolt at the Weekend at Superenduro Germany.

He won 2 of 3 races, Amazing!
He had a training crash and injured his knee.
He's a hard bone!

Hard attaced from Jonny!

 

[mike61]

 

[snydes]

Congrats to Stark on that arenacross win, that bike should be an absolute weapon for that format.

 

[blbills]

Congrats to Stark on that arenacross win, that bike should be an absolute weapon for that format.

Especially with a custom lightweight battery like they had.

 

[Swank171]

Especially with a custom lightweight battery like they had.

Is this true? Crazy

 

[sand300]

it's a normal battery with some cells removed to make it lighter. it didn't need the extra range to complete race distance

 

[Michael Anders]

AMA pander to Honda and KTM.
Are they going to ban launch control like the new Triumph 250?
Their stance on electric is disgusting.
At least in Australia Stark are sanctioned for the Pro Mx rounds with the fist official Aus round on 17 March at Wonthaggi some 2 hrs out of Melbourne Victoria Australia

 

[Beagle]

it's a normal battery with some cells removed to make it lighter. it didn't need the extra range to complete race distance

Yes, Thomas Do had already mentioned it, guys on Vital showed the schematics, it's likely that for AX 8 min races, Stark removes 100 cells out of the 400 Molicel INR-21700-P45B so the bike is 7 kg lighter and they don't care about losing 25% range in this case (and they can only use 60 hp anyway).

See Last2Stroke posts on this thread page 9, discussion between December 15th and 16th Stark Varg Racing Debut

 

[snydes]

As I recall Alta did the same trick on their endurocross race bikes.

 

[Jocke_D]

it's a normal battery with some cells removed to make it lighter. it didn't need the extra range to complete race distance

I'd love to see a battery module with some 250 cells that is in an easily removable bottom part of the battery. And charge separately of course.