AMA and Electric Motorcycles in AMA races

[Michael Anders]

Has the AMA rewritten the rules for 2024 or has the sprint Enduro category issued supplementary regulations about allowing electric. As the MX and SX rules specifically disallow electric. Are the rules available to post?

 

[Beagle]

Has the AMA rewritten the rules for 2024 or has the sprint Enduro category issued supplementary regulations about allowing electric. As the MX and SX rules specifically disallow electric. Are the rules available to post?

No idea but I think it's up to the organizers to add them in supplemental rules, just like electrics have been legal to race in AMA Endurocross for years. Though they probably need AMA approval for their supplemental rules to stay out of trouble.

BTW I have just found out interesting documents on motorcycling Australia website, intended for marshalls and officials, here you can find

recommended safety procedures and equipments

Stark Varg power settings and confirmation procedures

along the bulletin allowing electrics and the list of approved electric bikes.

Electric Machine Information - Motorcycling Australia

Electric Machine Recommended Safety procedures & Equipment Electric Bike Approved Competition List Stark Varg Power Confirmation Procedure Stark Varg Power Setting & Confirmation Procedures State & National Championships INFORMATION BULLETIN #2051 – Eligibility of Electric Machines Appendix D...

www.ma.org.au

 

[snikers]

No idea but I think it's up to the organizers to add them in supplemental rules, just like electrics have been legal to race in AMA Endurocross for years. Though they probably need AMA approval for their supplemental rules to stay out of trouble.

BTW I have just found out interesting documents on motorcycling Australia website, intended for marshalls and officials, here you can find

recommended safety procedures and equipments

Stark Varg power settings and confirmation procedures

along the bulletin allowing electrics and the list of approved electric bikes.

Electric Machine Information - Motorcycling Australia

Electric Machine Recommended Safety procedures & Equipment Electric Bike Approved Competition List Stark Varg Power Confirmation Procedure Stark Varg Power Setting & Confirmation Procedures State & National Championships INFORMATION BULLETIN #2051 – Eligibility of Electric Machines Appendix D...

www.ma.org.au

This is great. Awesome info. This can be used as an example for other national federations to issue their official regulatory and technical standings for electric dirtbikes in competition. Thanks a lot.

 

[Beagle]

This is great. Awesome info. This can be used as an example for other national federations to issue their official regulatory and technical standings for electric dirtbikes in competition. Thanks a lot.

Regarding US sprint enduro I'm sorry it's getting a bit more complicated at the moment: USSE did state that electrics would be legal and race against ICE but right now the AMA motocross manager is neither denying nor confirming it.
Series starts in 4 days...
I don't know the etiquette around here, is it ok to post a link to another forum?

 

[snikers]

Regarding US sprint enduro I'm sorry it's getting a bit more complicated at the moment: USSE did state that electrics would be legal and race against ICE but right now the AMA motocross manager is neither denying nor confirming it.
Series starts in 4 days...
I don't know the etiquette around here, is it ok to post a link to another forum?

This whole relationship between AMA FIM and some OEM's is shady to say the least. Haven't found a way to understand it
I am from northern europe and our local federation is waiting for anyone to come out with such regulations. I guess they don't want to be the first or something. UK did it more than year ago i think. What i am thinking is that AUS has provided a good overall instructions that probably will be used by our federation to allow Vargs race in MX1 and Open class in national motocross championship.

 

[Beagle]

I have seen lots of Varg owners videos from northern Europe, seems like there is a lot of enthusiasm for the bike up there.

FFM (France) is yet to release the details about the Varg homologation but I imagine it will be pretty similar to what Motorcycling Australia did.

And agreed, all these federations and organizers (including AX UK, Spanish hard enduro, Austrian enduro) being open to electrics, and experience from these competitions (safety, performance balance...) will make it easier for others to follow. They will have less excuses

 

[Michael Anders]

No idea but I think it's up to the organizers to add them in supplemental rules, just like electrics have been legal to race in AMA Endurocross for years. Though they probably need AMA approval for their supplemental rules to stay out of trouble.

BTW I have just found out interesting documents on motorcycling Australia website, intended for marshalls and officials, here you can find

recommended safety procedures and equipments

Stark Varg power settings and confirmation procedures

along the bulletin allowing electrics and the list of approved electric bikes.

Electric Machine Information - Motorcycling Australia

Electric Machine Recommended Safety procedures & Equipment Electric Bike Approved Competition List Stark Varg Power Confirmation Procedure Stark Varg Power Setting & Confirmation Procedures State & National Championships INFORMATION BULLETIN #2051 – Eligibility of Electric Machines Appendix D...

www.ma.org.au

Aussies are very practical when it comes to implementing safety protocols.
This will be the start and any required alterations will be managed , documented and implement as it should.

I would suggest this was also shared with the likes of the UK and French racing bodies and would also have been given to the FIM and the AMA.
I suspect the AMA are working through the very same safety stuff now.

Their (AMA) head up their own Arseholes approach does nothing for the sport.
AMA SX and MX had issued a No electric bike rule for 2024 but funnily I could not find that version yesterday on the AMA website - it seems maybe the rumblings from the Member Riders is starting to get to them. and so it should.

Anyhow AMA are wankers and their exclusionist behaviour is appalling.
Members need a say not just some Admin tosser paid 6 figure salary to dictate to riders their person preferences and pander to the moto mafia.
The AMAy are a joke.

 

[Beagle]

From what I understand, the AMA are weary about letting electrics compete with ICE for 2 main reasons: getting the balance in performance right, and safety regarding "silent passing".

Luckily for them, competitions in various countries this year will show if these issues can be easily sorted.

Of course an electric class would instantly solve both issues, the problem is that Stark is understandably not interested in competing with themselves.

Worst case scenario, when more Vargs are out there, or when Flux or Honda and co release their own electric bikes the problem will be automatically solved. Here's hoping we won't have to wait that long.

 

[Michael Anders]

From what I understand, the AMA are weary about letting electrics compete with ICE for 2 main reasons: getting the balance in performance right, and safety regarding "silent passing".

Luckily for them, competitions in various countries this year will show if these issues can be easily sorted.

Of course an electric class would instantly solve both issues, the problem is that Stark is understandably not interested in competing with themselves.

Worst case scenario, when more Vargs are out there, or when Flux or Honda and co release their own electric bikes the problem will be automatically solved. Here's hoping we won't have to wait that long.

Are we saying that all the 450's and 250's have the exact same performance?
If that was the case why is it that so many of the top 5 spots at most finals tend to be the same 3 makes.
Is Jet and his fellow Honda team mates and the KTM and Husky boys running the same performance engines as the Suzy Kwaka or Yam riders??
Me thinks not . The performance knobling of the bikes is a hoax.
Stark have proven they can limit the kW output and lock that down - I would argue if you put all the teams engines on dyno'd there would be marked differtences in kW output at either counter sprocket shaft or rear wheel.
All BS IMO.
If AMA want 450's on the same performance why not then have a one make engine and different frames and chassis and suspension packages .
80 %of the result is the rider not the bike.
Everyone knows this to be true.
Now AMA say the Stark has an unfair advantage whilst being 17 lbs heavier.
What a farce.

 

[DonCox]

Has the AMA rewritten the rules for 2024 or has the sprint Enduro category issued supplementary regulations about allowing electric. As the MX and SX rules specifically disallow electric. Are the rules available to post?

I don't know if this link will work but here is some information that is on the "Stark Varq Electric Motocross" Facebook forum.

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

The guy leading this discussion is John Depperschmidt.

 

[Marko_Flux]

I think separate classes are a way to push electric to the side, to be presented as an alternative, instead of eating into the ICE market share, amortization is a bastard. Those classes tend to have slow circuits and short races, which isn't the point - it's easy to make a fast bike for 10 mins.

The MotoE/FormulaE argument makes no sense, as they NEED to be separate, because they've got no hopes competing head on. We want to demonstrate what happens when you compete directly, with all the advantages (torque curve) and disadvantages (weight/endurance compromise). It's not called the gas powered, clutched and multi-gear world championship (btw are CVTs allowed?).

There are legit safety concerns and the FIM rules do require status indicating lights and a mechanical off switch (taking power from contactors, which disengage the main battery), which makes sense. Fire mitigation and handling high voltage have their place, but it's all solvable engineering/organizational stuff, it's not like gas isn't dangerous.

450 is an essentially open class, as power is more than traction usually, pros use an average of 15kW in MX. If you want to limit it, maybe an AMA/FIM issued datalogger is needed, as it quite easy for a manufacturer to show one hp number, but use another. Especially relevant to the 250 class.

In any case it's gonna be na uphill battle filled with false narratives, as with any paradigm shift. The more of us there are, the more pressure we can apply to push forward. Keep it up

 

[Beagle]

I fully agree with you, just when I think separate class I see a new class along MX1, MX2, on the same day, same track, same championship organizers. Not a sideshow like FIM explorer world cup no one knows about.

I would like to see electrics competing with ICE but to me this could be a compromise to compete where federations believe there could be safety issues running mixed classes. And I do believe such safety issues will be addressed in France, Australia and could not be used as an excuse for too long. Can you put some kind of buzzer on the Flux?

And then, even with a separate class (same day, same track) you can clearly see the day the electric class becomes the fastest class.

 

[Marko_Flux]

I fully agree with you, just when I think separate class I see a new class along MX1, MX2, on the same day, same track, same championship organizers. Not a sideshow like FIM explorer world cup no one knows about.

I would like to see electrics competing with ICE but to me this could be a compromise to compete where federations believe there could be safety issues running mixed classes. And I do believe such safety issues will be addressed in France, Australia and could not be used as an excuse for too long. Can you put some kind of buzzer on the Flux?

And then, even with a separate class (same day, same track) you can clearly see the day the electric class becomes the fastest class.

We can put an air raid siren, adding noise is easy. In my personal experience, nobody ever heard me (with ICE) coming from behind, I always had to time their braking to my shouting, so I'm not sold on the silent passing issues. But that's my personal opinion.

Same day/format makes sense if there's enough manufacturers (other than a single brand class, which could also be a thing). But we'll be addressing all the safety concerns in that case (charging, marshalls, fire etc), so the only remaining case to race together becomes "it's not fair". I wouldn't want to be in the position of answering "how much worse do we need to make our bikes for you to feel competitive?"

Fastest is hard to define, as a lot of it comes down to rider and team. The top riders will want to be in the premier class. That's why I think it's important to achieve inclusion at some point.

 

[Beagle]

I can see the ad from here:

The Flux - AMA limited edition comes equipped with 100 dB air raid siren, as required by AMA regulations, order now!
Air raid siren is also available on the Flux enduro - FIM limited edition.

 

[Swank171]

We can put an air raid siren, adding noise is easy. In my personal experience, nobody ever heard me (with ICE) coming from behind, I always had to time their braking to my shouting, so I'm not sold on the silent passing issues. But that's my personal opinion.

Same day/format makes sense if there's enough manufacturers (other than a single brand class, which could also be a thing). But we'll be addressing all the safety concerns in that case (charging, marshalls, fire etc), so the only remaining case to race together becomes "it's not fair". I wouldn't want to be in the position of answering "how much worse do we need to make our bikes for you to feel competitive?"

Fastest is hard to define, as a lot of it comes down to rider and team. The top riders will want to be in the premier class. That's why I think it's important to achieve inclusion at some point.

I love this cause when the NOISE argument fails the advantage one starts….

Ironic to me the electric bikes are bringing the truth to the surface….what I knew all along and was called a conspiracy theorist.

Imagine that! It’s not about the environment, but it’s about MONEY!!

The “it’s not fair..” was used not long ago when the 4 stroke rattle boxes I had to end my motocross career on were allowed to be double the displacement….

Why is it allowed to be not fair? Well 2 strokes burn oil!! Naughty naughty, 4 strokes are better for the environment so we will allow the advantage….did we mention the cost to race/maintain/parts is 700% more expensive and it’ll will pretty much ruin any privateers chance to make it?

Sorry…that’s the cost of saving the trees from the evil 2 stroke!!

(Let’s be clear, I DO NOT think electric is better for the environment….I actually see many ways that it is worse in its production/mining/disposal….we can get political if you want but I’ll stay on topic…)

So for fun let’s get on the side that electric is better for the environment….let’s assume it’s not some sort of narrative…

Why can’t they race? If you cut through the crap…looks like cost to maintain would put the ICE companies in a position to lose a LOT of money. No more “the unfair advantage goes to the least emissions….” Funny how quickly that dissolved..

Anyone actually believe KTM couldn’t make the freeride better? Most of us had built or ridden a surron that makes the freeride look silly. It’s been the same for years…KTM has no excuse with the access to funds and R&D to not have a bike that is at the stark level…UNLESS MAYBE THEY DONT WANT ONE!!

Look at the kids bikes….the e5 is limited just a little slower than the 50. My son has a cobra 50 a husky e5 and an electric cobra 50. He races pretty seriously and I will say the e bikes for racing. Wow how much less stress and pain…I get his suspension dialed chain right and tire pressure. No more too and bottom ends…amazing. These could be so much better but the powers to be keep them limited…I could go into this but unless you have the few years of dealing with racing the e bikes in ice 50 classes I’ll spare the novel.

Anyway, the point is ktm was going to release the E6 and E8 late last year and produce this year. They got such a big flood of interest then all of a sudden they were delayed and then the e3 and smaller bikes came out. Seems strange to me.

I’m not for or against anything. A free market is a fair market and it creates the best product for the consumer. There is no control in a free market. My favorite is 2 stroke cause I grew up in them but I can’t ride those in the hills of SD anymore…I can with electric. I can take my sons to some of my old spots that are still around and ride. We can bring shovels and no one cares. We can’t do that On ice anymore. We will prob always have our ice bikes but I wanna see some free and fair competition….tired of these paid “bike shootouts” and spoon fed info. It’s no different than mainstream media and government at this point.

Instead of all electric let’s go open. I’d bet an open class would be a revival of the 2 stroke cause it’s just better…we are so behind on 2 stroke tech because these manufacturers put every dime in 4 stroke development. Imagine if 2 strokes were still allowed to be competitive…? Where are the modern age 500s?

It’s a matter of time. these organizations are causing self inflicted wounds…it’s up to us to start making some noise about it. They can’t hide it, the lies are out in the open.

 

[Michael Anders]

With this latest from @Swank171 above I agree. I know CFMOTO and KTM have colab on the CF Moto electric.
The Kove Electric was released at EICMA 2023
Arctic Leopard are running Dakar right now along with an Italian Tacita and a spanish Titanium frame prototype in the Mission 1000
Honda has had an E-MX bike for at least 5 years since it unveiled it at the Japan Bike show .
Yamaha had the E trials bike and I am sure has an E-MX hiding behind the curtain.
Reiju have an E-MX
You have Zero with their trail Zero FX - just way too heavy for MX.
Soon we will Primo Flux,

The massive failure by the big Japanes on e-scooters and e-commuters has swayed them from going further. E has been a failure for Japan yet in China E has been and still is Huge. Surron , Talaria , Apollo are just a few we are aware of. there are literally 000's of chines e-bike and e-scooter makes.

Electric is not environmentally friendly - let's all agree - it is low emissions but the power generation and manufacturing of the e-range is far from green- the lack of Lithium Ion battery recycling the biggest issue and it is not just limited to bikes, Cordless power tool batteries and other Lithium battery cordless appliances, LiP phone batteries are a massive biohazard in waste management and deep burial. I could go on. not even starting on the filthy mining and processing hazards and waste.
Newer recyclable batteries will come but the Electric drive line has been around over 100 years - it is just the new computing power and algorithms of the controllers that make it usable and ready to race.

Head to head racing is the only way to see if these should stay and compete at race level or not.
Survival of the fittest is the rule of racing and has been that way for centuries.
If it cannot cut it it is cut from the heard.
The E get their own class.

 

[Beagle]

Apparently Vargs racing against ICE in US Sprint Enduro series is not happening, supplemental rules have not been approved by the AMA.

 

[Number Six]

When one thinks of electric cars, which name comes to mind ? Chevy Volt ?, Ford Escape -E ?, Audi E Iron ?
Nope .. it's Tesla. Why ? because they were 1st to have a viable product that consumers actually wanted to purchase.

I think the big manufacturers are lobbying hard to throw up roadblocks via the sanctioning bodies to keep Stark from competing & proving the machines are reasonably competitive in order to preserve future market share for the point in time they have a product to offer.
They got caught napping & all thats available to them currently is to block the prospect of Stark becoming the Tesla of electric off road bikes in the publics mind.

These are the same manufacturers & sanctioning bodies that allowed four strokes to have twice the displacement of the two strokes they were competing against at the time.
The strategy was effective on one level ; modern four strokes are pretty sophisticated, but there are those who would argue that four strokes are too expensive to maintain for most amateur riders & racers. Because of this truth - the AMA saw fit to allow same displacement 250 two strokes to line up at sanctioned amateur events but only after four strokes were fully developed & on equal footing.
Just imagine what a couple decades of development would do for already capable electric bikes ...

The short sidedness & downright cowardice of the FIM, AMA, et.al stand as an embarrassment & rightly so.
Pro level competition is the crucible by which advancements are made & proven, if it was the right call for four strokes, it should be the right call for E-bikes.
Cowards all.
.

 

[Swank171]

When one thinks of electric cars, which name comes to mind ? Chevy Volt ?, Ford Escape -E ?, Audi E Iron ?
Nope .. it's Tesla. Why ? because they were 1st to have a viable product that consumers actually wanted to purchase.

I think the big manufacturers are lobbying hard to throw up roadblocks via the sanctioning bodies to keep Stark from competing & proving the machines are reasonably competitive in order to preserve future market share for the point in time they have a product to offer.
They got caught napping & all thats available to them currently is to block the prospect of Stark becoming the Tesla of electric off road bikes in the publics mind.

These are the same manufacturers & sanctioning bodies that allowed four strokes to have twice the displacement of the two strokes they were competing against at the time.
The strategy was effective on one level ; modern four strokes are pretty sophisticated, but there are those who would argue that four strokes are too expensive to maintain for most amateur riders & racers. Because of this truth - the AMA saw fit to allow same displacement 250 two strokes to line up at sanctioned amateur events but only after four strokes were fully developed & on equal footing.
Just imagine what a couple decades of development would do for already capable electric bikes ...

The short sidedness & downright cowardice of the FIM, AMA, et.al stand as an embarrassment & rightly so.
Pro level competition is the crucible by which advancements are made & proven, if it was the right call for four strokes, it should be the right call for E-bikes.
Cowards all.
.

See my post 2-3 up from this….I agree on all fronts except the OEM getting caught napping….this is on purpose. So was killing 2 strokes. It’s all money. Service and parts makes way more than sales…4 strokes are cash cows. I wouldn’t give them the benifit of the doubt that they are aimlessly ignorant. They are greedy and nothing more than another governing body that creates a narrative that fits to get their way.

 

[UKLee]

I am reliably informed that Honda have electric mx bikes ready to go in to production which sounds feasible as part of there green saving the planet marketing but they want to milk the sale of very expensive 4 stroke CRF engine parts for a few more years yet.

The Mugen Honda bike used to win the IOM TT electric bike race easily every year and there part electric power plant in the Red Bull F1 car is walking away with the wins, good as the stark seems I doubt they have Honda worried.

When the Honda is on sale it will have all the safety stuff required ready to race, stark have shown no interest in this on our production bikes they put the effort in on taddys bike to check the rules why not on the production bikes? Not fit for purpose IMO and when the regs have been thrashed out our bikes need to be bought up to spec at no cost to the owner.