Dealership delivery

[bodacious swgr]

Just wanted to give my two cents on everything. I ordered my bike December 15, 2021 two days after the initial trailer and so far I’ve had nothing but bad experiences with stark. I hate to be one of those people that relentlessly criticizes a developing company but at this point it’s just ridiculous. My bikes been delayed at least 3 or 4 times now with 5-7 months added each time. Stark continues to make bold and empty promises about delivering bikes and yet they fall short every time.

The funniest part about the entire thing is that they happen to get bikes to “influencers” or basically anybody with a following to get them to market the bike. Don’t listen to them regarding shipping restrictions or any of that. I’m from SoCal and every day I see more and more people who live here and have bikes (what a coincidence they have channels) even though they supposedly can’t get them through.

Now not only do these people get bikes before any of the early customers but now they are starting to deliver them to dealers too. I was told by stark a month ago that “any minute” a dealer would reach out to me to arrange delivery and payment but surprise surprise it’s pushed back again to April. Seems like they’ll just hand bikes over to dealers and whoever else is willing to pay the extra 1k just to squeeze out every dollar they can.

 

[Beagle]

I kinda figured that was the case but was shocked to see the time line cut down that much!

From October Stark has been giving monthly production updates on their Instagram feed.

Sept 2023: 500
Oct 2023: 520
Nov 2023: >800 (daily record 69)

That's over 1 800 bikes produced in 3 months, to put things into perspective that's not far from Alta total 3 years production (believed to be around 2 000?).

Adding what they have produced between May and September, and December production (likely to be similar to November, we should know more in a few days), a conservative estimate is about 2 500 Vargs made in 2023 (likely to be closer to 3 000).

They did scale up extremely fast, in about 6 months they've built a production capacity of 10 000 bikes per year! That is nuts, especially if you consider the size of the MX market, around 80 000 annual sales (estimated by O'Neale CEO). Like selling 1 000 Vargs in Australia or in any of the top European markets (Germany, UK, France, Spain, Italy) would probably make them market leaders in said countries (considering MX, not off-road).

If you order a Varg today, estimated delivery is February 10th, that is 5 weeks for Europe, and April 5th (3 months) for the US and Australia. My interpretation for the very shortened wait is that pretty much all pre-orders that did convert into full orders have been delivered (I believe this to be the case in Europe where you can find available Vargs at some dealers) or will soon be, my guess is that the 18 000 pre-orders turned into 3 000 to 4 000 orders.

The outstanding issue acknowledged by Stark is delivery in the 10 following US states : California, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

In my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with free loan or price hikes or whatever, I just think they got overwhelmed by the demand and got entangled in US regulations, they probably don't have a legal department the size of Honda's (I can picture the one guy in charge and his 2 students in training ), and probably thought it would be easier like in the EU if your bike is registered/homologated in one country it can be sold in the whole EU without further paperwork (and there is no problem with direct to customer either).

I got no skin in the game and I'm not making excuses for them, I think they did suck at communicating with their customers about delays and explanations. They're getting better at it once everything else like production is almost sorted, I do believe it's awesome from them to communicate monthly production (we would wait a long long time for OEMs to do that) and customers dissatisfaction online probably played a part in this openness.

I understand why one can be angered/frustrated with the extended wait and lack of communication, though in hindsight your $100 bet on an unknown startup a couple years ago is probably no turning so bad.

 

[bodacious swgr]

From October Stark has been giving monthly production updates on their Instagram feed.

Sept 2023: 500
Oct 2023: 520
Nov 2023: >800 (daily record 69)

That's over 1 800 bikes produced in 3 months, to put things into perspective that's not far from Alta total 3 years production (believed to be around 2 000?).

Adding what they have produced between May and September, and December production (likely to be similar to November, we should know more in a few days), a conservative estimate is about 2 500 Vargs made in 2023 (likely to be closer to 3 000).

They did scale up extremely fast, in about 6 months they've built a production capacity of 10 000 bikes per year! That is nuts, especially if you consider the size of the MX market, around 80 000 annual sales (estimated by O'Neale CEO). Like selling 1 000 Vargs in Australia or in any of the top European markets (Germany, UK, France, Spain, Italy) would probably make them market leaders in said countries (considering MX, not off-road).

If you order a Varg today, estimated delivery is February 10th, that is 5 weeks for Europe, and April 5th (3 months) for the US and Australia. My interpretation for the very shortened wait is that pretty much all pre-orders that did convert into full orders have been delivered (I believe this to be the case in Europe where you can find available Vargs at some dealers) or will soon be, my guess is that the 18 000 pre-orders turned into 3 000 to 4 000 orders.

The outstanding issue acknowledged by Stark is delivery in the 10 following US states : California, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

In my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with free loan or price hikes or whatever, I just think they got overwhelmed by the demand and got entangled in US regulations, they probably don't have a legal department the size of Honda's (I can picture the one guy in charge and his 2 students in training ), and probably thought it would be easier like in the EU if your bike is registered/homologated in one country it can be sold in the whole EU without further paperwork (and there is no problem with direct to customer either).

I got no skin in the game and I'm not making excuses for them, I think they did suck at communicating with their customers about delays and explanations. They're getting better at it once everything else like production is almost sorted, I do believe it's awesome from them to communicate monthly production (we would wait a long long time for OEMs to do that) and customers dissatisfaction online probably played a part in this openness.

I understand why one can be angered/frustrated with the extended wait and lack of communication, though in hindsight your $100 bet on an unknown startup a couple years ago is probably no turning so bad.

How much did they pay you?

 

[Beagle]

How much did they pay you?

They have had big distribution issues in the US, and have outstanding issues in 10 US states where they can't currently deliver (having been able to deliver early before getting into some legal issues), they've been bad at communicating with their customers, and this situation sucks for residents in said states.

In the meantime, Stark has already made more bikes than Alta ever did and estimated wait for new orders is about 1 month in Europe and 3 months in the US and Australia.

Which part do you disagree with ?

 

[jh151]

I think the frustration stems from 3 delays, watching 3 local guys who paid in full back in August get bikes in October and then after figuring that out I tried to pay to get mine but it was disabled by then! It's hard to not be bitter when guys who ordered after me get bikes 5+ months before me!

I emailed to try and figure it out and got 1 email saying if I paid in full I will not get my bike any faster "that's not what I was told by the guys who had bikes" and then the next 3 emails got sero response! 95% of the info I've got has been thanks to these forums, just being transparent would have gone a long way with me!

 

[Beagle]

Hell yeah that would frustrate anyone!

In my opinion they have been amazing on the production side of things, and delivering a great bike if hundreds of reviews are to be trusted, they got some real distribution issues, particularly in the US, and sucked completely at communicating with customers on preorders, be it with legal issues, dealer bikes, prioritizing some orders or transitioning from direct to customers to dealerships.

Hopefully your bike is in the batch coming to the US that is supposed to deliver all bikes for the remaining US preorders before April (unfortunately only in the 40 states where they can currently operate).

 

[jh151]

Hell yeah that would frustrate anyone!

In my opinion they have been amazing on the production side of things, and delivering a great bike if hundreds of reviews are to be trusted, they got some real distribution issues, particularly in the US, and sucked completely at communicating with customers on preorders, be it with legal issues, dealer bikes, prioritizing some orders or transitioning from direct to customers to dealerships.

Hopefully your bike is in the batch coming to the US that is supposed to deliver all bikes for the remaining US preorders before April (unfortunately only in the 40 states where they can currently operate).

Is there a list of states somewhere? I'm in idaho.

 

[Beagle]

Is there a list of states somewhere? I'm in idaho.

Yeah I've put up Stark Instagram post on the first page of this thread then mentioned these 10 states again a couple of posts above but if you missed it you might as well watch the source (spoiler alert: Idaho is not one of the 10 states still affected by this issue so hopefully no more delay for you).

Stark Future on Instagram: "Quicker delivery times & scaling of production🐺⚡️ All customers with existing orders now have an updated delivery date! Please review it in your Stark account. Regarding USA🇺🇸 The Stark team is working hard on obtainin

3,962 likes, 138 comments - stark__futureDecember 20, 2023 on : "Quicker delivery times & scaling of production🐺⚡️ All customers with existing orders now have an updated delivery date! Please re..."

www.instagram.com

 

[F451]

… in hindsight your $100 bet on an unknown startup a couple years ago is probably no turning so bad.

You forgot the part about the bike being advertised as 240 lbs and it then ballooning to 260 lbs.

Add in all the other crap you already mentioned and I believe I am due a refund on my deposit.

I upheld my end of the deal, Stark did not, not even close.

Requested a refund, it was refused.

Very poor way to treat early adopters/investors, poor way to run a business.

 

[AL_V]

Just wanted to give my two cents on everything. I ordered my bike December 15, 2021 two days after the initial trailer and so far I’ve had nothing but bad experiences with stark. I hate to be one of those people that relentlessly criticizes a developing company but at this point it’s just ridiculous. My bikes been delayed at least 3 or 4 times now with 5-7 months added each time. Stark continues to make bold and empty promises about delivering bikes and yet they fall short every time.

The funniest part about the entire thing is that they happen to get bikes to “influencers” or basically anybody with a following to get them to market the bike. Don’t listen to them regarding shipping restrictions or any of that. I’m from SoCal and every day I see more and more people who live here and have bikes (what a coincidence they have channels) even though they supposedly can’t get them through.

Now not only do these people get bikes before any of the early customers but now they are starting to deliver them to dealers too. I was told by stark a month ago that “any minute” a dealer would reach out to me to arrange delivery and payment but surprise surprise it’s pushed back again to April. Seems like they’ll just hand bikes over to dealers and whoever else is willing to pay the extra 1k just to squeeze out every dollar they can.

Yes, the influencers got their bikes first, they say Bryan Haskell was the first to order, very possibly the truth.
And they started off direct to buyer shipping, but most states don't allow that (Ask Tesla and Rivian), so they had to change the plan.
So now they are exclusively shipping through dealers.
I am also very disappointed in the weight gain, if you no longer want the bike, you're out the $100 deposit that was clearly non-refundable from the start.
If you do still want your bike, you can wait until they get their clearance to ship to California, or see this thread:

Stark Map Recommendations

I’m in CA. It has shipped now and I did pay. I have a vin and all the good stuff. Use power motorsports in Oregon. Call and ask for Matt Williams and he will get you hooked up with a shipper too. You need to have your delivery dealership changed to them. They are up to speed on stark and...

electricdirtriders.com

I think the Oregon dealer can even ship it to you in California, not sure how much that costs, but no sales tax to Oregon!

 

[bodacious swgr]

Yes, the influencers got their bikes first, they say Bryan Haskell was the first to order, very possibly the truth.
And they started off direct to buyer shipping, but most states don't allow that (Ask Tesla and Rivian), so they had to change the plan.
So now they are exclusively shipping through dealers.
I am also very disappointed in the weight gain, if you no longer want the bike, you're out the $100 deposit that was clearly non-refundable from the start.
If you do still want your bike, you can wait until they get their clearance to ship to California, or see this thread:

Stark Map Recommendations

I’m in CA. It has shipped now and I did pay. I have a vin and all the good stuff. Use power motorsports in Oregon. Call and ask for Matt Williams and he will get you hooked up with a shipper too. You need to have your delivery dealership changed to them. They are up to speed on stark and...

electricdirtriders.com

I think the Oregon dealer can even ship it to you in California, not sure how much that costs, but no sales tax to Oregon!

The weight gain isn't really my main issue. Although I assume the extra weight comes from the fact they added extra capacity to the battery after it underperformed during early testing the bike must feel much lighter considering the way the rotating mass of the electric engine works (I'm no expert these are just my assumptions). The big deal here is the miscommunication and blatant lies on Starks end. Yes I noticed that Haskell was the "first" customer and received his order in California but what about the other people who ordered on day one and have been screwed over again and again?

I'm sure that Starks production numbers are quite impressive especially considering they appeared almost out of thin air several years ago but telling me that 800 bikes were produced last month isn't really doing anything for me considering that support told me I was to be approached about my order "any minute now" by some mystery dealer and yet its been another month without communication. The BS Instagram reels just add icing to the cake when they start promising bikes in a few weeks to people who order right now. "We have shortened the delivery date on all existing orders" - Anton Wass. I'm not sure how the marketing team managed to confuse all existing orders with just the ones that were placed recently since almost every one of their early supporters had their orders delayed by +3 months at they very least. I'd most likely have my bike delivered to Oregon if possible but Stark hasn't even communicated anything about that process in the first place.

 

[AL_V]

The weight gain isn't really my main issue. Although I assume the extra weight comes from the fact they added extra capacity to the battery after it underperformed during early testing the bike must feel much lighter considering the way the rotating mass of the electric engine works (I'm no expert these are just my assumptions). The big deal here is the miscommunication and blatant lies on Starks end. Yes I noticed that Haskell was the "first" customer and received his order in California but what about the other people who ordered on day one and have been screwed over again and again?

I'm sure that Starks production numbers are quite impressive especially considering they appeared almost out of thin air several years ago but telling me that 800 bikes were produced last month isn't really doing anything for me considering that support told me I was to be approached about my order "any minute now" by some mystery dealer and yet its been another month without communication. The BS Instagram reels just add icing to the cake when they start promising bikes in a few weeks to people who order right now. "We have shortened the delivery date on all existing orders" - Anton Wass. I'm not sure how the marketing team managed to confuse all existing orders with just the ones that were placed recently since almost every one of their early supporters had their orders delayed by +3 months at they very least. I'd most likely have my bike delivered to Oregon if possible but Stark hasn't even communicated anything about that process in the first place.

Their unsolicited communication in general is almost nonexistent. But their response to support email is generally pretty good, I don’t think I’ve never had to wait more than 2 business days for a reply, usually 1.
So if you want to get your bike shipped to Oregon, you need to contact them, if you don’t, you will be waiting until they get approval to ship to California (and then some). I have no personal experience, but have read that it’s not the easiest state to deal with.

 

[Swank171]

Having it shipped from Oregon is working better for me…the shipping is half what sales tax would have been.

Chalking it up as a win….send your order to OR and Give Matt a call at power motorsports.

 

[F451]

...I'd most likely have my bike delivered to Oregon if possible but Stark hasn't even communicated anything about that process in the first place.

There is no "Stark" process for this as far as I can see.

Stark isn't proactively working on any work arounds to get bikes in the hands of the early order peeps who are in the states where the direct to consumer sale bikes cannot be shipped directly to the customers.

It appears that if you are in one of the affected states that you have to take matters into your own hands and reach out to random Stark dealers like the one in Oregon that has been mentioned here a number of times. Confirm they can get you a bike and when, agree on price, edit your order on Stark's website to show the new dealer, get payment to the dealer, and oh yeah, figure out shipping to your location or arrange local pickup.

Kudos to those that have done this on their own and are getting their bikes. It's either that process or wait for Stark to figure all the regulatory issues out and then ship you your bike.

Ps: As much as I've bitched about Stark's treatment of early order peeps, no refunds, delayed bikes, very poor communication, etc, I hope everyone that has or is waiting for their Varg loves the bike when they get it, and that Stark is successful long term.

 

[Magoo69]

According to Stark my Varg shipped 12/25/23. Frankly, I’ll believe it when it shows up. GOOD news is that my dealership also did some digging and confirmed that there is a shipment of Vargs on the water. BAD news is that no one can tell me or the dealer whose Vargs are on the ship/on their way.

Starks logistics information is non existing to the consumer and also the dealerships…Totally unacceptable in my opinion, especially considering that Stark made us prepay for the bikes. Any other vehicle manufacturer can tell you exactly where your vehicle is in the production process AND exactly where it is in the shipping process.

Stark needs to step up their communication to depositors and especially those who have paid in full.

I’ll provide updates as soon as get any additional info.

 

[Swank171]

According to Stark my Varg shipped 12/25/23. Frankly, I’ll believe it when it shows up. GOOD news is that my dealership also did some digging and confirmed that there is a shipment of Vargs on the water. BAD news is that no one can tell me or the dealer whose Vargs are on the ship/on their way.

Starks logistics information is non existing to the consumer and also the dealerships…Totally unacceptable in my opinion, especially considering that Stark made us prepay for the bikes. Any other vehicle manufacturer can tell you exactly where your vehicle is in the production process AND exactly where it is in the shipping process.

Stark needs to step up their communication to depositors and especially those who have paid in full.

I’ll provide updates as soon as get any additional info.

What dealer/state are you taking delivery from?

 

[mike61]

At the weekend I talked to a VARG dealer here in Germany.
He said for him it takes 4 weeks from order to delivery.

 

[Magoo69]

What dealer/state are you taking delivery from?

Massachusetts, Pilgrim Power Sports

 

[Torqu3]

Massachusetts, Pilgrim Power Sports

Please update when yours arrives. My order is through the same dealer (originally an online order placed in the fall of 2022) and I paid in full towards the end of the year. No idea when mine is arriving.

 

[evh1]

FYI - for those looking for a dealer to call about a Stark. Max Motorsports in Pelham, AL has a couple (one is mine I couldn't pull the trigger on, whoops) I believe and are actively getting more. 205.605.1904