Maximum Scramble Range


Johnny Depp

Well-known member
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98
Location
Austin TX
What’s proving to be the best solution? What Gearing and settings have been tested and what were the results?

The questions I am trying to find answers to are what works best:
* Smaller or larger rear sprocket
• More or less regen
• More or less HP
Not so interested in theories as actual experiments with both?
 

Kurlon

Well-known member
Likes
62
Location
Maine
Riding to maximize regen is a PITA coming from hybrid/phev land. If you're using your brakes, you're not regening as much as possible, and the non-ECU controlled rear brake means the system can't help you by ramping up regen in back before resorting to the mechanical setup. So, yeah, I'm convinced 100% regen is going to get the most range, but the impact of regen is going to vary wildly by riding style and terrain. I don't see a scenario where less regen is going to somehow go further?
 

Matt

E-Rider
Likes
605
Location
Rochester, New York
I think max regen would be best IF the rider has very good throttle control. Flowing the best possible with minimal motor input and minimal braking is possible even in max regen mode as long as the rider can hold the throttle in the perfect spot to "coast" or have minimal motor input. Then during braking periods rely as much as possible on regen. Long range works the best with good flow = minimal wheel spin, minimal acceleration.
 

F451

Well-known member
Likes
921
Location
WA State, USA
I can only relate my experiences on the Alta as I have not ridden a Varg, but I found the Alta's regen to add basically zero charge/range back into the battery. Or zero % that I could notice.

My Alta applied what felt like a fair amount of "engine braking" feel when letting off the throttle (especially when chopping the throttle closed quickly). It would slow the bike down considerably and I often wondered if I would be getting greater range if the bike had less regen/engine braking, since any stopping forces had to be compensated for by applying more throttle and using battery energy doing to accelerate again since the bike did not "freewheel" readily.

If I was very precise with the Alta throttle I could get it to feel like it was freewheeling, which felt more like a 2 stroke, but it wasn't as easy to do as say a typical 2 stroke.

So I think there may be a case to be made that less regen, or no regen, may extend the range on the Varg, if the amount of energy being put back into the battery is less then what is being used to accelerate the bike again.
 

Matt

E-Rider
Likes
605
Location
Rochester, New York
I can only relate my experiences on the Alta as I have not ridden a Varg, but I found the Alta's regen to add basically zero charge/range back into the battery. Or zero % that I could notice.

My Alta applied what felt like a fair amount of "engine braking" feel when letting off the throttle (especially when chopping the throttle closed quickly). It would slow the bike down considerably and I often wondered if I would be getting greater range if the bike had less regen/engine braking, since any stopping forces had to be compensated for by applying more throttle and using battery energy doing to accelerate again since the bike did not "freewheel" readily.

If I was very precise with the Alta throttle I could get it to feel like it was freewheeling, which felt more like a 2 stroke, but it wasn't as easy to do as say a typical 2 stroke.

So I think there may be a case to be made that less regen, or no regen, may extend the range on the Varg, if the amount of energy being put back into the battery is less then what is being used to accelerate the bike again.
The Alta regen is mostly the same for the different maps with map one being slightly higher. Noticing any difference in range from regen isn't really possible because they are all virtually the same. The only way would be terrain differences or riding style differences I think.

Flow - minimal acceleration + minimal wheel spin definitely helps the range the most on Altas. That said if you can still flow the same with max regen through throttle control you can capitalize on the braking energy loss.

I agree it is semi challenging however and until mastering throttle control using minimal regen will likely help people get better ange. Throttle control just opens the door to using regen benefits while still flowing the same thus increasing range.
 

Johnny Depp

Well-known member
Likes
98
Location
Austin TX
I can only relate my experiences on the Alta as I have not ridden a Varg, but I found the Alta's regen to add basically zero charge/range back into the battery. Or zero % that I could notice.

My Alta applied what felt like a fair amount of "engine braking" feel when letting off the throttle (especially when chopping the throttle closed quickly). It would slow the bike down considerably and I often wondered if I would be getting greater range if the bike had less regen/engine braking, since any stopping forces had to be compensated for by applying more throttle and using battery energy doing to accelerate again since the bike did not "freewheel" readily.

If I was very precise with the Alta throttle I could get it to feel like it was freewheeling, which felt more like a 2 stroke, but it wasn't as easy to do as say a typical 2 stroke.

So I think there may be a case to be made that less regen, or no regen, may extend the range on the Varg, if the amount of energy being put back into the battery is less then what is being used to accelerate the bike again.
This matches more what I am discerning from the multitude of video's and posts and sources. Obviously there hasn't been any scientific comparison, I'd imagine if you put 5 bikes doing the same course at the same pace all with different settings you may be able to make some valid comparisons?
I haven't seen anyone "proving" that the regen actually regens, it seems like it's all engine braking? Freewheeling seems to be showing the best results, with no regen. Also taller gearing minimizing wheelspin seems to have great potential, you just won't feel as fast, but likely get better range? Theory is cheap, comparisons are needed IMO. Same for power settings. IMO there is still more to be learned about stretching the range.
Don spinning the wheel and digging a hole on the start is an example, had he not done that he might not have finished at 1%. Where is traction control?
 

jh151

New member
Likes
4
Location
Idaho
I did a west coast higher speed hare scramble type loop the other day. 40HP max regen. Little bit of sand, wet dirt, a few hills that are clay hard pack. 40HP I found myself on the gas a lot and fairly hard! Used 60% battery in 26 minutes. High speed seemed to be the most detrimental to battery life 50+ mph. Might try 50 HP next to see if less throttle input helps any!
 

wfopete

Well-known member
Likes
52
Location
Land of NOD
I'm riding my Varg in an enduro tomorrow. Tight woods so slower speeds. Probably run 30 HP and zero re-gen. Short Couse is around 55 miles. Do I expect to finish? No. I figure I'll need to bail around the half way point but maybe not.
 

stephane

Active member
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40
Location
Minneapolis
I'm riding my Varg in an enduro tomorrow. Tight woods so slower speeds. Probably run 30 HP and zero re-gen. Short Couse is around 55 miles. Do I expect to finish? No. I figure I'll need to bail around the half way point but maybe not.
Let us know if you can.
 

AL_V

Well-known member
Likes
183
Location
Canton, Ohio
I'm riding my Varg in an enduro tomorrow. Tight woods so slower speeds. Probably run 30 HP and zero re-gen. Short Couse is around 55 miles. Do I expect to finish? No. I figure I'll need to bail around the half way point but maybe not.
55 miles!?
Hope you can finish!
 

wfopete

Well-known member
Likes
52
Location
Land of NOD
I rode the White Rock Enduro (Arkansas). For those unfamiliar with the WRE it is comprised of tight woods, rocks, hills, rocks, tight woods, hills, rocks, creeks and on and on. It was the usual beat up crappy rocky 8 mile transfer to the first test. The first test was hilly & had a lot of tight, new trail full of saplings to plow through. It wasn't that long but it was full of stuff that made me glad I didn't ride my 300 and I had the Varg. A setup ReKluse in a well jetted E start 300 KTM would be good also but my 2006 300 with a manual clutch and a kicker would have had me worn-out and calling it a day after the first test. The Varg shined in the tight, technical stuff with such a "No Drama" motor. I was 16 miles into the ride and down to 50% battery at the start of Test 2. Test 2 was only 3 miles but had a mile long tight, steep rocky hill climb that again, the Varg excelled in. So smooth and responsive with power always "right there" to get me through the nasties. Test 2 also had a show stopper ledge. When I got to it a YZ was struggling on roots before the ledge. Riders before had dug at the base leaving a hole filled with roots at the base of the ledge. So nice! There were about four riders on the ground trying to recover from failing on the climb. I had to stop for the YZ which killed my momentum. He got over the ledge and I took off with about a 2 foot run at it. I got the front wheel over the ledge and one rider pulled the front end while I pushed the rest of the Varg up and over. I think that was the worst part of the Varg: Dealing with the weight in something like that. Those climbs sucked power and I was down to 30% at the start of Test 3. I had covered 23 miles. Test three was more open but still had some serious hills. I was down to 20% at the end of Test 3 (27 miles) and 19% by the time I hit 31 miles. Just enough to limp back to camp. I missed test four (Grass track) and the rest but I learned much about the Varg in the woods.
 

AL_V

Well-known member
Likes
183
Location
Canton, Ohio
I rode the White Rock Enduro (Arkansas). For those unfamiliar with the WRE it is comprised of tight woods, rocks, hills, rocks, tight woods, hills, rocks, creeks and on and on. It was the usual beat up crappy rocky 8 mile transfer to the first test. The first test was hilly & had a lot of tight, new trail full of saplings to plow through. It wasn't that long but it was full of stuff that made me glad I didn't ride my 300 and I had the Varg. A setup ReKluse in a well jetted E start 300 KTM would be good also but my 2006 300 with a manual clutch and a kicker would have had me worn-out and calling it a day after the first test. The Varg shined in the tight, technical stuff with such a "No Drama" motor. I was 16 miles into the ride and down to 50% battery at the start of Test 2. Test 2 was only 3 miles but had a mile long tight, steep rocky hill climb that again, the Varg excelled in. So smooth and responsive with power always "right there" to get me through the nasties. Test 2 also had a show stopper ledge. When I got to it a YZ was struggling on roots before the ledge. Riders before had dug at the base leaving a hole filled with roots at the base of the ledge. So nice! There were about four riders on the ground trying to recover from failing on the climb. I had to stop for the YZ which killed my momentum. He got over the ledge and I took off with about a 2 foot run at it. I got the front wheel over the ledge and one rider pulled the front end while I pushed the rest of the Varg up and over. I think that was the worst part of the Varg: Dealing with the weight in something like that. Those climbs sucked power and I was down to 30% at the start of Test 3. I had covered 23 miles. Test three was more open but still had some serious hills. I was down to 20% at the end of Test 3 (27 miles) and 19% by the time I hit 31 miles. Just enough to limp back to camp. I missed test four (Grass track) and the rest but I learned much about the Varg in the woods.
That's a respectable range; 31 miles and still 19% left. Thanks for sharing!
 

wfopete

Well-known member
Likes
52
Location
Land of NOD
Yeah that's Shane. We parked next to each other at the enduro. We both had the same charging issue; that being the while on the charger the reout would show one percentage of battery left but when you disconnect the charger the % would drop. In my case it went from 40% to 27% within a mile.
 

Beagle

Well-known member
Likes
266
Location
France
Yeah that's Shane. We parked next to each other at the enduro. We both had the same charging issue; that being the while on the charger the reout would show one percentage of battery left but when you disconnect the charger the % would drop. In my case it went from 40% to 27% within a mile.
Now he's putting videos of the Enduro tests as well, great content
 
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