STARK VARG (Something new is coming!)

[Miles Prower]

An interesting "Stark Varg Motocrosser Tech Analysis" in Cycle World published yesterday.

I'll quote some of the more interesting assessments that Steven Anderson presents:

According to one of the founders of Alta, several Alta engineers have been involved in the project.

One thing seemingly missing when reviewing Stark employees listed on LinkedIn are electrical engineers and controller software specialists. Stark claims to have designed its own extremely compact inverter (motor controller), but I suspect that was done by a consultant unless there are unlisted employees.

One thing suggesting the Stark is very real indeed is that the bike is fitted with Kayaba suspension, one of the standards for current motocrossers. Kayaba and Showa both make truly excellent suspension at reasonable prices, but neither Japanese company is particularly eager to work with startup companies, as they have been burned by some of these in the past. Showa suspension components on the Vark point to a legitimate machine. It was years after Zero was founded before Showa accepted it as a customer. That a Japanese suspension company is willing to work with Stark suggests that its own due diligence with Stark led to solid conclusions about its capitalization and chances for success.

 

[fsfs]

Another Josh Hill interview --

 

[UKLee]

Another Josh Hill interview --

2.15 "battery quick easy swap" Thats another different opinion about battery change!

Come on Stark, you have My £100 deposit but you are going to have to put in a lot more effort to get my £11,000.
If it was Honda or Yamaha (who are working on a common battery with other manufactures) I would be confident any issues would get fixed with warranty etc but Stark appear from nowhere, no background no history nothing lets be honest could go the same way Alta has gone.

Give me some confidence, a video of a complete working bike, show what it takes to remove bodywork, give us close ups of the frame ect, show the cooling is it a radiator or heat soak? show what it takes to remove the battery. Explain how it was designed/built and why like Robby Gordon has with the speed utv, weekly!
At what point will we see some independent endurance testing? or will that be the job of the first paying customers? !

A slimey well spoken salesman in a suit is all well and good but give me a hands on engineer/mechanic in his overalls every time.
What are the costs going to be for the phone, apps, contracts etc "DEVICE AND EQUIPMENT" ?
Whats the Warranty in plain english?
Cost of a second Battery? Recharg time on UK 220/240 volt system?

​

 

[Oded]

the Stark seems promising, but I don't see the huge leap forward he is talking about compared to the Alta. I suppose the 3% competitors riders will appreciate the changes, not much more.
when Josh describes how they built the Stark from the ground up as an electric bike, he could replace the word "Stark" with "Alta", and it would sound just as right.

the Stark main advantage over the Alta is that it is being manufactured..

saying that, I also really want a Stark Varg.

 

[Chadx]

...At what point will we see some independent endurance testing? or will that be the job of the first paying customers? !

Several channels have made comment that demo, preproduction bikes will be distributed this summer. So we'll see plenty of testing and ride opinions prior to needing to go through with a purchase. Paying customers won't be the first to ride and review these.

This type of rollout (announcement, preorders, distribution of preproduction to reviewers, order fulfillment) is the same as most ICE and EV vehicles. It's just going to be compressed into about a year rather than 3 or 4 years like some of the automanufacturers. So the cycle will simply feel "last minute" because of the short cycles.

 

[B. FRANK]

I can't help but notice that there are more Altas up for sale, I recently bought a 2017 mx, I really hope that people aren't dumping their Altas in anticipation of stark vargs, which honestly may or may not happen, ie Britton mc.or may only run a year or two ie Alta, Harley v rod, Norton revivals etc. I truly hope that the Varg is a wonderful bike and that the price remains the same but we are talking a year from now and a lot can change. good luck to stark and their bike and everyone who is in line to own one but as for me, the Alta is already a better bike than I am a rider and I'm only getting older. ps. seems like a good time to buy an Alta

 

[Philip]

If it was Honda or Yamaha (who are working on a common battery with other manufactures)

We heard about this a year ago, but nothing has happened yet. When it happens, and if it happens, this will not start with motocross bikes. This will start with commuter scooters in Asia and maybe Europe, where motorcycles and scooters are used as transportation. They will have battery swap stations scattered around in big cities, and you can ride to work, then grab another already charged pack, and ride home.

Maybe some of this battery swap tech will eventually move into bigger street bikes. Or maybe not. Bigger bikes can use quick chargers that are made for cars. They do not really need swappable batteries.

We are really hopeful that Honda and Yamaha would have identical hot-swappable batteries in motocross bikes. But that may never happen. They all want to remain competitive in motocross and supercross. If they compromise their frames to fit a standard battery, they will lose in weight and racetrack performance to the Stark Varg or to other manufacturers who choose to not compromise. So, I would not hold my breath and I definitely would not wait for this technology to appear in dirt bikes any time soon.

 

[Philip]

Another Josh Hill interview --

"Yeah, we will not need gas for that much longer."" - Josh Hill #75

 

[UKLee]

We heard about this a year ago, but nothing has happened yet. When it happens, and if it happens, this will not start with motocross bikes. This will start with commuter scooters in Asia and maybe Europe, where motorcycles and scooters are used as transportation. They will have battery swap stations scattered around in big cities, and you can ride to work, then grab another already charged pack, and ride home.

That is already available and has been for a while, Check out Gogoro's giant new battery swap stations for its electric scooters I am sure I read for off road bikes but can not find it now. If not then it's not a bad thing as honda and yamaha can design there own battery packs to work in with there current already proven MX/Enduro frames.

 

[fsfs]

That is already available and has been for a while, Check out Gogoro's giant new battery swap stations for its electric scooters I am sure I read for off road bikes but can not find it now. If not then it's not a bad thing as honda and yamaha can design there own battery packs to work in with there current already proven MX/Enduro frames.

Here is a freeride E battery change in 15 seconds:

Why don't you just buy one of those? It fits your criteria very well. From a major manufacturer so low risk and battery can be quickly changed...

Note that the battery is up very high. A quick change battery in an MX bike can be done significantly better than KTM did. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some company brings a good quick change dirt bike to the market. I would be surprised if Honda or Yamaha did it. Most likely a company dedicated to electric bikes will do it.

But, it seems like the freeride E checks your boxes:
1. Major manufacturer
2. quickchange battery

So why not just get one of those??

 

[UKLee]

Here is a freeride E battery change in 15 seconds:

Why don't you just buy one of those? It fits your criteria very well. From a major manufacturer so low risk and battery can be quickly changed...

Note that the battery is up very high. A quick change battery in an MX bike can be done significantly better than KTM did. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some company brings a good quick change dirt bike to the market. I would be surprised if Honda or Yamaha did it. Most likely a company dedicated to electric bikes will do it.

But, it seems like the freeride E checks your boxes:
1. Major manufacturer
2. quickchange battery

So why not just get one of those??

like the one on the left you mean!

We had the surron (quiet bikes to use in the field behind our house) but also wanted a full sized electric bike as well, we wanted an Alta but all I could find was one here (England) £12,000 with no frame number!!! not a chance do I want any part of a bike with no ID. Also as I read up more about the Altas there is this what could be VERY expensive to fix battery problem especially being in England and parts are going to be a problem for the Alta so forget it.
Last summer the only options were an Epure or an as new used freeride e-xc, I have loads of older ktm's but promised my self I would never buy a modern one and as I am sure you know the freeride e-xc is not quite full size, and the Epure is a trials bike with a raised seat so even smaller. Against my better judgment I bought the freeride e-xc, I dare not wash it or use it in wet conditions and dread the day fault codes start coming up.

We still want a full sized electric bike hence putting a deposit on a stark but hoped by now we would have had more answers and shown what the bike is made of instead of constant videos and interviews of paid riders "toeing the line"

You say "A quick change battery in an MX bike can be done significantly better than KTM did" no doubt, could even be made as a stressed member and quick release so why did you not do it with the stark....or did you? I keep getting different answers

 

[fsfs]

We still want a full sized electric bike hence putting a deposit on a stark but hoped by now we would have had more answers and shown what the bike is made of instead of constant videos and interviews of paid riders "toeing the line"

You say "A quick change battery in an MX bike can be done significantly better than KTM did" no doubt, could even be made as a stressed member and quick release so why did you not do it with the stark....or did you? I keep getting different answers

Sure, the 16 minute video is a marketing video with Anton in a turtle neck, but don't let that fool you There is a lot of info there. Look at it carefully and freeze it at certain points. The 3D models on the screens are the actual models; they are not made for the promo video.

Battery case is magnesium alloy. Shown 3D is actual. Shown case is also actual case.

Motor is 9kg. Again, shown motor is actual motor. There is a single reduction stage (two gears) and a counter shaft for the sprocket (same as Alta).

You can see a guy carrying an actual frame in the video. If you watch carefully you can really figure out how it goes together.

As for quick change -- sometimes there is no substitute for a bolt. A quick change battery would have come at the expense of speed around the track. It might be tempting to be an armchair engineer and claim that quick change can be done with zero penalty. Once you start designing and doing the calcs, it becomes clear that that is not the case. You can be smart and mitigate the penalty to some extent, but you will not eliminate it. Speed around the track was design priority. If that is not your priority so be it. Like I said, the Varg cannot be all things to all riders.

 

[Philip]

I think the Sur-Ron Storm Bee has a quick swap battery. But everyone lost interest in it when the weight and power numbers came out.

 

[Chadx]

I think the Sur-Ron Storm Bee has a quick swap battery. But everyone lost interest in it when the weight and power numbers came out.

I didn't lose interest. It just hasn't been offered for sale yet or I would have bought and been trail riding one for the last two years. Ha.

The KTM freeride has much too short of range and so the Storm was the only thing in the works that was fullsize and had more range than the two little Surron X bikes we own.

Since trail riding, weight wasn't that much of a concern since I mostly ride 300lb dual sports. But, it turns out the Storm being a couple years late to market was for the best because then I would have had to sell it when my Varg arrives. Ha. ...But I also lost out on 2 years of fullsize EV trailriding, so some lost value there.

And for the record, since trail riding, swappable battery isn't really important to my use cases nor is weight. But range of the mounted battery is very important. Probably the most important for me..

 

[UKLee]

Sure, the 16 minute video is a marketing video with Anton in a turtle neck, but don't let that fool you There is a lot of info there. Look at it carefully and freeze it at certain points. The 3D models on the screens are the actual models; they are not made for the promo video.

Battery case is magnesium alloy. Shown 3D is actual. Shown case is also actual case.

Motor is 9kg. Again, shown motor is actual motor. There is a single reduction stage (two gears) and a counter shaft for the sprocket (same as Alta).

You can see a guy carrying an actual frame in the video. If you watch carefully you can really figure out how it goes together.

As for quick change -- sometimes there is no substitute for a bolt. A quick change battery would have come at the expense of speed around the track. It might be tempting to be an armchair engineer and claim that quick change can be done with zero penalty. Once you start designing and doing the calcs, it becomes clear that that is not the case. You can be smart and mitigate the penalty to some extent, but you will not eliminate it. Speed around the track was design priority. If that is not your priority so be it. Like I said, the Varg cannot be all things to all riders.

"You can see a guy carrying an actual frame in the video. If you watch carefully you can really figure out how it goes together."
Yes from what I can see if you remove the bolts that hold the battery to the frame with the bike on it's wheels it will collapse in the middle? need to support the frame around the foot rest area with the tyres on the ground so the bottom frame mounting points do not move out of line, does not look like there is room to leave the bottom bolt in loose and swing the battery down?

 

[UKLee]

I didn't lose interest. It just hasn't been offered for sale yet or I would have bought and been trail riding one for the last two years. Ha.

The KTM freeride has much too short of range and so the Storm was the only thing in the works that was fullsize and had more range than the two little Surron X bikes we own.

Since trail riding, weight wasn't that much of a concern since I mostly ride 300lb dual sports. But, it turns out the Storm being a couple years late to market was for the best because then I would have had to sell it when my Varg arrives. Ha. ...But I also lost out on 2 years of fullsize EV trailriding, so some lost value there.

And for the record, since trail riding, swappable battery isn't really important to my use cases nor is weight. But range of the mounted battery is very important. Probably the most important for me..

We have them available here now Sur-ron Storm Bee Enduro Road Legal Electric Motorcycle Surron | eBay
We get better range out of our freeride e-xc than we do the surron lb but that is the later freeride with the better battery. Did not think there was a lot of differance between the freeride and the surron storm in power and battery life?

 

[blbills]

Here's another interesting article I stumbled on. Nice to see some decent technical journalism every now an then:

Stark Varg Motocrosser Tech Analysis

A technical analysis of the Stark Varg electric motocross bike from its batteries to motor to chassis and suspension.

www.cycleworld.com

 

[Number Six]

Speed around the track was design priority. If that is not your priority so be it. Like I said, the Varg cannot be all things to all riders.

Encouraged by such a no-compromise focus on performance.
I once bought a Freeride 250R 2s & moved heaven & earth in an attempt at a 205lb XCW type machine.
Couldn't overcome the designed-in chassis geometry & limited suspension performance despite $ignificant modifications to both.

 

[fsfs]

"You can see a guy carrying an actual frame in the video. If you watch carefully you can really figure out how it goes together."
Yes from what I can see if you remove the bolts that hold the battery to the frame with the bike on it's wheels it will collapse in the middle? need to support the frame around the foot rest area with the tyres on the ground so the bottom frame mounting points do not move out of line, does not look like there is room to leave the bottom bolt in loose and swing the battery down?

Let's try this another way. What is your reason for the quick-change? How often will you need to do it? In how much time must the quick-change be completed?

If you need to do it once in a while it might be ok. If you need to do it very often the Varg is probably not the bike for you.

 

[UKLee]

Let's try this another way. What is your reason for the quick-change? How often will you need to do it? In how much time must the quick-change be completed?

If you need to do it once in a while it might be ok. If you need to do it very often the Varg is probably not the bike for you.

We do all sorts with the bikes H+H, Mx, Practice days, Why dont you just post up a video of what is involved in a battery swap and the price of a second battery then people can decide if it will work for them?