Stark varg support is the worst

[Erwin P]

They should just stop the phone dash thing. It's beyond hopeless.

My experience with support is way better than average in this topic. The the phone on both the MX1.0 and the EX are always looking for ways to make trouble.

 

[heinkelstefan]

It's sad and, of course, absolutely comforting to hear that the "phone" thing is hopeless from somebody like you.
The times I felt like a complete and utter idiot for not getting ot to "dash" mode etc......

I'd love to know how that discrepancy in support experience comes from!

 

[Erwin P]

The EX dash so far seems better than my early MX gen 1. But still often won't go on with the bike. But taking it out and turn it on with the manual button often does it. But it should just work. I have never have dashes not coming on with the multitude of bikes i had/have. Even the most finiky Italian bikes have dashes that work 100% of the time.

The discrepancy is probably in the fact that i'm communicating technical issues throughout a large industrial organisation on a regular basis.
That makes contact with Stark's tech support actually really smooth.

Only thing is that the never got my MX 1.0 dash to be 100% reliable, although it did get better over time. In the beginning it was maybe 5% reliable, now we're around 90%.

 

[heinkelstefan]

Oh my god. To even having to communicate procent points on this topic is incredibly unsatisfactory, in my opinion. SO good though that it really has increased that much!

When I ordered the EX I was absolutely convinced (!) that Stark would do ANYTHING to not let experiences and a general mood like this prevail.
Including hiring (and firing?.....) legions of young, cheap and hot hackers to man the telephones and just erase any such problem within a day or two. In the users mother tongue. Well, not for kaaskopjes, they are to few and can all speak any kind of English..

I'd have NEVER guessed that these issues existed before the EX!
Somewhat shameful, I'd say....

I have, up to this day, not comprehend what surface/display/app is which, and what connections there are between ALL of those and the site, registration or updates etncetera.

That I'd LOVE to wipe ANYTHING that has not immediate influence on riding from the "phone" should be obvious.
How I hope for the attempts I saw here on the forum to really take over...

For most of my rides I do communicate in English. It is not always straightforward as not every tech term sticks right away. But I manage... .

Having to keep "Arkenstone" stuff kinda sorted in my head, having to explain them over and over again AND doing that for about three roughly similar decices (...smartphone, smartTV, stupid home heating app...) makes trying to fix bugs (unpaid, of course...) HUGELY unpleasant (trying to avoid expletives here!).

My ice rides have some point at which to take out some tool, turn some knob here and fiddle a switch there. In case of the Varg I want it to run or try to get vital information for the way home.

Sorry. Wasn't supposed to be a rant.

 

[Erwin P]

Stark's tech support is actually pretty good. As soon as you give them good info they are very knowledgeable.
However trying to real time connect a phone to an external device (the bike), having it to start up along with the bike and doing all that via Bluetooth has it's fundamental drawbacks. No matter how good tech support is, it's hard to combat laws of physics through a helpdesk.

On average the Stark has been more reliable than any ICE me or friends have ever owned.
Although the early MX gen 1's had more issues upon release wich have gotten better over updates and warranty parts. But i think any well thinking rider has anticipated that when buying the first model of a new brand.

I can see a huge increase in how well thought out my new EX is compared to my early MX.

It's just kinda sad the phone, sidestand and probably the tubes (will test them until they break in MX) give the otherwise very premium bike a very Aliexpress feel to it.

 

[Chaconne]

I have owned 2 later model MX-1s ones with the Blackview phone and have had zero issues with the phones or connectivity (outside of normal shitty bluetooth). And besides a couple of mishaps where I didn't make sure the phone was solid in the holder (it flew out in the gnarl) I have had pretty good reliability.

TBH though Bluetooth is not a great protocol and anyone who has used Bluetooth peripherals knows it can be dicey whether things connect or not. A sure sign of trouble was when Stark switched phones for the newer models. Getting reliable hardware/software and wringing it through is usually better than a jump to new brand/models for questionable features and added complexity.

Sorry @Hinkelstein the dream of a legion of young hot hackers at the phones is a pipe dream. The only way that will work is if Stark outsources the phone help as it has already proven that the Euro version of help is worse than Indian call centers --if that is even possible. At least in the Indian call centers they sometimes have technical competence since they really do have legions of tech workers willing to work the phones. That just won't happen in the US or Europe.

I think Stark should consider outsourcing all of its IT tech for the bikes (hardware/software/help). Homegrown tech has proven a failure at many industrial companies. The upper management sees tech as a huge profit center but then is unwilling to spend the capital when the true costs are clear and the customer then pays the price with a shitty experience. I have been there and done that many times...

 

[F451]

Stark's tech support model is failing because they are not investing the funds to make it consistently effective, just like most corporations do. I'm sure Stark is trying harder then most companies, but I don't think they realized just how much support their customers would need.

Customer, and tech support especially, are massive cost centers for corporations and they are constantly looking for ways to slash those costs. I spent a good portion of my career working in customer and tech support. I started on the phones and worked my way up and I can say most tech support groups are one support request away from a complete fiasco every day (its very stressfull! lol). And if you're wondering about those automated options to choose when you call a customer support number, those are not designed to help you, they're designed to get rid of you (as well as long wait times), and it works!. Basically, most companies do the bare minimum to support their customers.

Stark's cell phone and software reliance (but primarily the weight of the bike ballooning) was one of the main reasons I did not purchase the bike. It was plain to me that the phone and software would lead to all kinds of problems for customers and I didn't want to be a beta tester for a $12,000 dirt bike.

In spite of my not buying a Stark (and losing my $100 deposit which I'm still annoyed about - feel like I got bait and switched on the weight of the bike), I'm rooting for them and all of you. I'm especially hoping Stark will simplify the bike (get rid of the phone, do a better job with the software/hardware, etc.), and improve their tech support so everyone can have a better ownership experience.

 

[AL_V]

Stark's tech support model is failing because they are not investing the funds to make it consistently effective, just like most corporations do. I'm sure Stark is trying harder then most companies, but I don't think they realized just how much support their customers would need.

Customer, and tech support especially, are massive cost centers for corporations and they are constantly looking for ways to slash those costs. I spent a good portion of my career working in customer and tech support. I started on the phones and worked my way up and I can say most tech support groups are one support request away from a complete fiasco every day (its very stressfull! lol). And if you're wondering about those automated options to choose when you call a customer support number, those are not designed to help you, they're designed to get rid of you (as well as long wait times), and it works!. Basically, most companies do the bare minimum to support their customers.

Stark's cell phone and software reliance (but primarily the weight of the bike ballooning) was one of the main reasons I did not purchase the bike. It was plain to me that the phone and software would lead to all kinds of problems for customers and I didn't want to be a beta tester for a $12,000 dirt bike.

In spite of my not buying a Stark (and losing my $100 deposit which I'm still annoyed about - feel like I got bait and switched on the weight of the bike), I'm rooting for them and all of you. I'm especially hoping Stark will simplify the bike (get rid of the phone, do a better job with the software/hardware, etc.), and improve their tech support so everyone can have a better ownership experience.

Sorry you denied yourself the pleasure of an absolutely amazing bike!
I love my Stark MX1 so much, I bought a second one (used).
If there was one thing I could change on the bike, it would be the weight, and that is only a problem when I fall down and have to pick it up. When riding, it feels as light as any bike could be.
If there was a second thing, yes, it would be the phone, but for the last year, mine has been working very well, not quite perfect, but close to it.
And with the two-year warranty, it’s absolutely amazing!
I’m looking forward to trying out the dust Moto, which is now 235 pounds instead of 220, but of course will have less power and probably less range.
Have you ridden a Stark?

 

[F451]

Sorry you denied yourself the pleasure of an absolutely amazing bike!
I love my Stark MX1 so much, I bought a second one (used).
If there was one thing I could change on the bike, it would be the weight, and that is only a problem when I fall down and have to pick it up. When riding, it feels as light as any bike could be.
If there was a second thing, yes, it would be the phone, but for the last year, mine has been working very well, not quite perfect, but close to it.
And with the two-year warranty, it’s absolutely amazing!
I’m looking forward to trying out the dust Moto, which is now 235 pounds instead of 220, but of course will have less power and probably less range.
Have you ridden a Stark?

No need to be sorry for me, and I've not denied myself anything as I chose other bikes and have been loving them. And I haven't had to deal with any of the negative issues raised in this thread, and the many other threads from a $12,000 beta version of a bike.

I knew the "I love my Stark!", "My Stark has been super reliable, best bike I've ever owned!", and "Stark's tech support has been awesome for me!" replies would be coming, and I'm genuinely happy for all the folks that love their Starks and are having great experiences with them, that is awesome. Doesn't change anything in my mind.

Haven't ridden a Stark, owned an Alta that I rode the wheels off and loved for years, except for the weight. The things a porker and so is the Stark. And you can please save your keyboard strokes by telling me how you don't feel the weight, it works better then a 300 in the gnar, etc, I've heard it all before and am not buying it, but again I'm happy people are loving their Altas and Starks. I know I loved my Alta in spite of the weight.

I have a couple of friends that have put time on Altas, one guy bought mine, another guy has ridden them a number of times. Both very capable riders who have been riding for years, owned all kinds of dirt bikes. I respect their opinions. One guy bought a Stark based primarily from his experiences riding my Alta. He loves his Stark. The guy that bought my Alta told me after riding a Stark an number of times that he didn't think is was a major upgrade from the Alta, and the weight felt the same. That feedback confirmed for me that my decision to not invest in the Stark was the right call - for me.

The Dust Moto looks very promising, hopefully they will deliver on their promises.

 

[heinkelstefan]

I've read it all up to here and it does make me sad.
(Including the complete and utter destruction of my pipe dream - DANKE @Chaconne! ).

I want to state here that I am immensely happy to be on this board!

I do no longer feel alone. I do not feel like a TOTAL €#&@%=¥$ for having issues. For not grasping them and for not being in a situation to REALLY destroy them with a spanner and brute force.

To see so many smart people just getting into "The Dark Side of the Varg" is fascinating, comforting and satisfying!

Thank you all!

 

[Chaconne]

No need to be sorry for me, and I've not denied myself anything as I chose other bikes and have been loving them. And I haven't had to deal with any of the negative issues raised in this thread, and the many other threads from a $12,000 beta version of a bike.

I knew the "I love my Stark!", "My Stark has been super reliable, best bike I've ever owned!", and "Stark's tech support has been awesome for me!" replies would be coming, and I'm genuinely happy for all the folks that love their Starks and are having great experiences with them, that is awesome. Doesn't change anything in my mind.

Haven't ridden a Stark, owned an Alta that I rode the wheels off and loved for years, except for the weight. The things a porker and so is the Stark. And you can please save your keyboard strokes by telling me how you don't feel the weight, it works better then a 300 in the gnar, etc, I've heard it all before and am not buying it, but again I'm happy people are loving their Altas and Starks. I know I loved my Alta in spite of the weight.

I have a couple of friends that have put time on Altas, one guy bought mine, another guy has ridden them a number of times. Both very capable riders who have been riding for years, owned all kinds of dirt bikes. I respect their opinions. One guy bought a Stark based primarily from his experiences riding my Alta. He loves his Stark. The guy that bought my Alta told me after riding a Stark an number of times that he didn't think is was a major upgrade from the Alta, and the weight felt the same. That feedback confirmed for me that my decision to not invest in the Stark was the right call - for me.

The Dust Moto looks very promising, hopefully they will deliver on their promises.

Compared to other ICE brands that I ride specifically Yamaha and KTM, my Stark MX-1s have been just as good or better across all metrics of reliability and quality of construction and etc. Including the phone. Both my WR450 and my 300xc-w have their share of shall we say "design issues" and shortcomings. And the WR450 is heavier than the Stark.

The internet, message boards, and social media tend to generally greatly inflate the negative. It is like the media, bad news sells good news does not. Yes there have been issues for sure, no denying that, but the internet sales platform and the lack of dealerships made this seem worse than it is IMHO.

I agree I would like a lighter bike. But for non-moto applications (which it works very well for) the Stark is about the same weight as a yz450fx fully gased. Sure it isn't trim like a KTM 450 sx-f but even that is around 240 gased and most folks won't ride that off the track.

My take is that until there is a change in tech the power to weight ratio is the limiting factor with all types of power. It is hard to get around the 250lb weight range with big bikes. Even the nostalgia unicorn current KTM 300 xc-w 2T comes in at around 250lb gased.

 

[Kurlon]

My 92 Yamaha WR250ZD is 200lbs gassed and good to go in sumo trim, my 19 150SX wasn't far from there in sumo trim either. My 09 300XCW was 230 gassed and ready? Current 300XC is 240lbs gassed up. Remember current MX bikes are built around AMA/FIM rules for minimum weight and are not as light as the tech could make them. 270lbs is a noticeable increase from those numbers.

 

[Chaconne]

My 92 Yamaha WR250ZD is 200lbs gassed and good to go in sumo trim, my 19 150SX wasn't far from there in sumo trim either. My 09 300XCW was 230 gassed and ready? Current 300XC is 240lbs gassed up. Remember current MX bikes are built around AMA/FIM rules for minimum weight and are not as light as the tech could make them. 270lbs is a noticeable increase from those numbers.

Those aren't really comparable bikes though. No offense but I am riding the Stark 8 days a week compared to older bikes. Add e-start of that era to your 92 Yam and it will get fatter quickly --though your right leg will probably be noticeably weaker...

A 2026 300XCW gets you to almost 250 and to be honest the only time you feel the weight is when you drop it (I preferred the TPI bikes they were actually a little lighter and I don't think the new ones are that much more reliable). You'll feel the Stark when you pick it up but when you are riding it it feels lighter than my KTM 300.

MX bikes do have to meet AMA/FIM like you say. But that is not the only reason for weight. KTMs for example, have all noticeably gained weight on their own over the past few years due to reliability. Less weight means less material and more susceptibility to wear fatigue on parts especially on machines pounded on MX tracks.

 

[Erwin P]

And not forget stiffness. The pre 2000 bikes are like cooked noodles compared to the newer ones. May not be your style. But the amount of force modern MX bikes get to endure compared to the days of old where suspension was way less advanced is not to be underestimated.

In ADV bikes you see the same claims a lott. That older bikes are lighter and thus the better offroaders when things get rough. But time and time again the modern Tenere 700, KTM 890 etc run circles around the Dominator's, DR650's etc etc in pretty much all conditions imaginable.

 

[AL_V]

My 92 Yamaha WR250ZD is 200lbs gassed and good to go in sumo trim, my 19 150SX wasn't far from there in sumo trim either. My 09 300XCW was 230 gassed and ready? Current 300XC is 240lbs gassed up. Remember current MX bikes are built around AMA/FIM rules for minimum weight and are not as light as the tech could make them. 270lbs is a noticeable increase from those numbers.

Are those actual weights from a scale?
I weighed my 2008 KTM 300 XCW with a full tank of gas (3 gallons), heavy duty tube in the front, tubliss in the back, aftermarket skid plate and handguards, and it weighed 259.
After I did the same to my Varg MX1 (except no add-on skid plate), it was 276, so about 17 pounds more, but worth it to me, because I don't have to pick it up as often.
As I have said a few times, I wish the Varg was lighter, but it's still my bike of choice. I am 66 years old btw, and I ride nearly every weekend almost all year, spiked tires in the snow and ice.
Here are some weights with NO aftermarket add-ons:

Dirt Bike Weight Comparison - with Examples

How much does a dirt bike weigh, ready to ride? Comparing modern enduro bikes weight. Each dirt bike is weighed with a full tank of fuel, full fluids, and with no aftermarket parts

dirtbikechannel.com

Not sure why the second image is rotated...

 

[Kurlon]

My ye olde 250 has been weighed a few times, 'cause I was curious. And yeah, it's frame is a noodle compared to modern stuff, but it just works well for me in supermoto? Well, it would work better if I hadn't gone too mad scientist on the motor. The 292 setup provides a flat torque curve and plenty of go, but also enough vibration that it foams the fuel in the bowl and starves itself on long pulls above 3rd gear. :/

How it started life:


Current state:

 

[Chaconne]

My ye olde 250 has been weighed a few times, 'cause I was curious. And yeah, it's frame is a noodle compared to modern stuff, but it just works well for me in supermoto? Well, it would work better if I hadn't gone too mad scientist on the motor. The 292 setup provides a flat torque curve and plenty of go, but also enough vibration that it foams the fuel in the bowl and starves itself on long pulls above 3rd gear. :/

How it started life:
View attachment 16348

Current state:
View attachment 16349

Very cool!!!

 

[markhamr]

With thousands of race wins world wide in the last year a 450 still rules \
The stark is a finicky trail bike.
I still don't get the point in comparing them at all.

 

[Kurlon]

With thousands of race wins world wide in the last year a 450 still rules \
The stark is a finicky trail bike.
I still don't get the point in comparing them at all.

We compare because we have the benchmark, and we want better.

 

[Chaconne]

With thousands of race wins world wide in the last year a 450 still rules \
The stark is a finicky trail bike.
I still don't get the point in comparing them at all.

When most of those 450s are used as trail bikes or almost anything off the MX track, they become far more finicky than the Stark and just as heavy. Plus, they overheat spit coolant all over the place and can be like riding an overheated crotch rocket.