SV software license, potential subscriptions, smart bike ramifications etc

[enjoythesilenc]

If one reads the fine print, when you buy a Stark, you purchase a motorcycle and a software license. It's stated that the license isn't transferable. What happens when you try to sell your SV to someone else?

The 60 vs 80hp option is already on the table as far as buying different software packages, What else might be possible in this area? It seems the connectivity and data-related features might be as important to the company as the actual motorcycle.

Potential subscriptions might be fun to talk about, too.

Mercedes is charging $1,200 a year for faster acceleration

Gotta go fast? Best pay up.

www.theverge.com

 

[Motophyllic]

It seems that’s the times we live in. Everything is going to be a paid upgrade type scenario. It cost me $2000 to get more power out of my tesla.

 

[Chadx]

Varg discussed this from the beginning. They will be offering a subscription for extended services, mainly around the features on the display/gauge. Owners will get certain permanent features and some will be unlocked with subscriptions. Things like Navigation, storing 100 modes, and certain advanced track features such as "air time". We don't know how many bike profiles we'll get without the subscription but I would assume/hope it is at least 5 since that is how many you can store on the bike at a given time.

The 60hp to 80hp was announced as a purchase; not subscriptions, but I guess they could always change that. Personally, I hate this subscription thing creeping into vehicles. Want heated seats? Oh you have them, but if you want them to work, you'll have to pay monthly. I won't do it. From the original Varg announcements on subscriptions, there is nothing there I would subscribe to and enjoy the bike without it, even if they are neat features. If any fundamentals require a subscription, that will push me over the edge and I'll just cancel the few Varg I have on order and go buy a new ICE bikes.

You have me curious if they updated any info on subscriptions so I'll go poke around their ever changing website....

 

[Chadx]

Interesting wording now on the Varg main page under the Technical Highlights section and expanding the "Stark Varg Display , Phone & App" section. Pasting below.

The last paragraph mentions the subscription. So it seems that they are sticking pretty close to what they first announced. The "Premium subscription" will be for pretty much all the things they list in the below bullet points such as SIM card/cell connectivity, Navigation, 100 stored ride modes, phone-to-phone transfers, and all the track/lap features. We'll just have to see how much they clamp down for those with the "Free Plan". Any business will understandably make you pay for as much as they can (that is how they maximize profit. They are a 'for profit' business after all). What may determine what features fall into free and what are subscriptions is pushback by potential owners. So it will take everyone voicing what they are comfortable paying for in a subscription and what they are not to shape that Varg decision.

I'm going to email them right now for clarification to see if they will reply with exactly what we get with free plan. They currently simply say "and certain features such as 24/7 internet connectivity, number of ride modes, adjustability and navigation are limited if you choose the free plan". I'm fine with most of that, but want to be able to save at least 5 ride modes (10 would be better) since the bike will hold 5 active at any time. The free plan should allow for full adjustment of bike parameters (power curve, engine braking and virtual flywheel effect, as well as traction control) and not limit those as I see those as core features of the bike.

From the Stark website as of December 03, 2022.
------------------------
Through the Stark VARG APP we offer you a 100 % customizable ride. The unique display of the Stark VARG is a shock resistant and waterproof Android phone, the “Stark VARG Phone”. When locked into place it charges and communicates wirelessly, whilst serving exclusively as the bike display and when unclicked by the press of a button it is a fully functioning smartphone.

In the Stark VARG APP we let you adjust the power curve, engine braking and virtual flywheel effect, as well as traction control. You can build more than 100 different ride modes, and choose to have five of those actively available on your bike at the same time. Change instantly through these five modes at the touch of a button on your handlebar. Build your ride modes to perform like a 125cc 2-stroke, 450cc 4-stroke or anything in between.

Features:
• The Stark VARG APP is available on the Stark VARG Phone or any Android or iOS device.
• You can easily transfer the information from your Stark VARG Phone to any other smartphone, where you can update the ride modes or analyze your riding data. This includes lap times, map data, speed, G-force, airtime and power consumption.
• Ability to share trails or ride modes with your friends.
• Check the battery level left on your bike via the display and see a range estimation based on your riding style.
• Personalized ride modes: Make the best of each situation by saving more than 100 personalized bike configurations that will allow you to adjust the power curve, engine braking, traction control and virtual flywheel effect to the relevant terrain and conditions.
• Internet connection: Premium users will receive a SIM card that will enable them to connect 24/7 in more than 150 countries and even use the Stark VARG Phone as their personal device.
• Display navigation: Make the most of your adventures as your bike display maps out your route through GPS powered smart display navigation. An essential resource for remote trail riding.
• Lap timer: Push yourself to the limit with our GPS enabled lap counter which allows you to track your lap times at any circuit.

All the above features will be available through our premium subscription plan, and certain features such as 24/7 internet connectivity, number of ride modes, adjustability and navigation are limited if you choose the free plan. All plans will automatically receive the latest over-air software updates and new customers are offered a one-month free trial of the premium plan. You will be able to select or update your plan in the Stark VARG app.

 

[C5tor]

Well, most of the subscription-based features are tired to the phone. And as with most cell phones, if you want to get cellular connectivity, you need to subscribe to the data plan. Not surprised that part is not free.

 

[B. FRANK]

buy what you want up front and be aware of the options. this summer I bought a zero sr the worlds most upgradeable bike. I get a restricted version of their flagship bike, the sr/f and thought i could download upgrades and get an sr/f without the features I don't want for less, dream on. I thought I saved thousands of $ over buying the sr/f because I don't want or need gps, reverse or heated grips so I would purchase the power up grade and battery upgrade to make my sr run with a sr/f but combined they cost more than if I would have just bought the sr/f which comes with all of the above. oh well live and learn, still love the sr, not just a nice electric bike...a nice bike!

 

[VINSANITY]

Hey what kind of range do you get out of the SR/F. I’ve been thinking about the SR/S as the fairing apparently helps with range?

 

[B. FRANK]

I bought the SR. and that's a silly question. depending on the mood of my right hand, 70 to 120 miles. highway/backroads. really nice bikes. zero also just gave me a free battery upgrade and I haven't ridden the bike since. I also have not done the battery or power upgrade yet. you can also buy an extra battery that fits in the storage area which is the mock gas tank but I am concerned that it adds weight too high on the bike. truth is I only have a 100 mile ass anymore anyway. buy the bike, you'll love it. ps. I do believe my sm will whomp it in a drag race to 80mph. once again I haven't done the power upgrade yet.

 

[Chadx]

I emailed Stark about the Premium vs Free subscriptions today. I'll post up any response that I receive.

 

[happyinmotion]

Look at it this way - you're not paying for petrol, for oil, for new top ends. Stark aren't going to make money off you from maintenance and regular spare parts.

I'm ok with a subscription model, you're just paying for different things than on previous bikes. I'm expecting it'll still work out pretty cheap to run.

 

[Chadx]

Look at it this way - you're not paying for petrol, for oil, for new top ends. Stark aren't going to make money off you from maintenance and regular spare parts.

I'm ok with a subscription model, you're just paying for different things than on previous bikes. I'm expecting it'll still work out pretty cheap to run.

That is one way to look at it, however I already do consider that I'm saving on fuel, oil, engine maintenance, convenience, noise, etc. for my current non-ICE, battery electric powersports and tools: dirtbikes, eMTB, two lawn mowers, snowblower, chainsaw, trimmer and blower, and don't pay subscriptions for any of those electric devices. Ha.

Like I said, if it's for "premium" features that typically have ongoing costs such as mobile phone SIM/Connection, navigation (which presumably is constantly updated, etc.), I'm fine with that. Even good with fees for "extra" features such as track/riding data, phone to phone sharing, downloads, analysis, etc. I'm not fine if the core features of the bike cost you monthly such as full adjustment of bike parameters (power curve, engine braking and virtual flywheel effect, as well as traction control).

At least Stark is only doing a one time "unlock" cost to change from 60hp to 80hp rather than a monthly or yearly fee to unlock the extra power. I guess I should be careful about mentioning that so I don't give them any ideas. Ha. Mercedes announced they will do a $1,200 annual fee ($100/month) to unlock full hp/torque from some of the EQ series vehicles. Mercedes Will Make Your EV Quicker . . . If You Pay $1200 a Year BMW has equipped some models with electric seats but you can't use them unless you pay a monthly subscription. And another subscription for "automated high beam switching". They tried the same thing with charging to be able to use Apple Car play and Android Auto. GM has added a line item to the Monroney as well; mandatory $1,500, 3-year subscription for Onstar. Even if you don't want it and never activate it, you pay for a 3 year subscription. GM makes OnStar add-on mandatory, including $1,500 fee

The problem is it will start like this; fees for Premium features which will trigger a reaction from buyers and make headlines, etc. but most will just figure it's fine because those are Premium features and they are fine with not subscribing. But as the headlines fade and buyers get more used to seeing subscriptions but not buying them, all of a sudden a feature you really want requires it, and you go ahead and subscribe even if the value isn't there. But then the day comes when a you go to buy a new car, dirtbike, refrigerator, or toaster and it won't even do it's primary function unless you pay a subscription, just like your mobile phone. That is a ways off, but will be here soon enough. Maybe I'll grow used to it, but for now, subscriptions really, really rub me the wrong way.

 

[Chadx]

Sent: 05 December 2022 16:29
To: support@starkfuture.com
Subject: Varg Premium subscription vs Free subscription

Hi,
In early release videos and interviews, Stark noted that there would be Premium Subscriptions and Free Subscriptions associated with the Varg and that the subscription level would determine available features. Further down this email, I've pasted the latest updates from the Stark website. Of particular interest is "certain features such as 24/7 internet connectivity, number of ride modes, adjustability and navigation are limited if you choose the free plan."

Has it been determined what features the free subscription will have? Or, more importantly, which features it will not have?

It makes sense that a "Premium subscription" would be needed for certain features such as SIM card/cell connectivity, Navigation maps and phone-to-phone transfers. For me personally, I'm also fine with premium being needed to store "100 stored ride modes" and to access some advanced track/lap features such as air time.

Free subscriptions should include the ability to create/store at least 10 personalized bike configurations. The free subscription should also include full access to adjustment of the bike parameters (power curve, engine braking and virtual flywheel effect, traction control, etc.) and not limit adjustment of any of those parameters to Premium subscription because I see that adjustability as a core feature of the bike. I will not be purchasing the Premium Subscription. If we can't access the core functionality of the bike (changing all the bike parameters), that greatly reduces the value of the Varg. Full adjustability needs to be accessible from all subscription levels.

Please let me know if it has been determined what features will be included with the Free Subscription. And please pass along my above comments to the correct department for consideration (let me know once that has been done).

Thank you,
Chad

From website:
------------------------
Through the Stark VARG APP we offer you a 100 % customizable ride. The unique display of the Stark VARG is a shock resistant and waterproof Android phone, the “Stark VARG Phone”. When locked into place it charges and communicates wirelessly, whilst serving exclusively as the bike display and when unclicked by the press of a button it is a fully functioning smartphone.

In the Stark VARG APP we let you adjust the power curve, engine braking and virtual flywheel effect, as well as traction control. You can build more than 100 different ride modes, and choose to have five of those actively available on your bike at the same time. Change instantly through these five modes at the touch of a button on your handlebar. Build your ride modes to perform like a 125cc 2-stroke, 450cc 4-stroke or anything in between.

Features:
• The Stark VARG APP is available on the Stark VARG Phone or any Android or iOS device.
• You can easily transfer the information from your Stark VARG Phone to any other smartphone, where you can update the ride modes or analyze your riding data. This includes lap times, map data, speed, G-force, airtime and power consumption.
• Ability to share trails or ride modes with your friends.
• Check the battery level left on your bike via the display and see a range estimation based on your riding style.
• Personalized ride modes: Make the best of each situation by saving more than 100 personalized bike configurations that will allow you to adjust the power curve, engine braking, traction control and virtual flywheel effect to the relevant terrain and conditions.
• Internet connection: Premium users will receive a SIM card that will enable them to connect 24/7 in more than 150 countries and even use the Stark VARG Phone as their personal device.
• Display navigation: Make the most of your adventures as your bike display maps out your route through GPS powered smart display navigation. An essential resource for remote trail riding.
• Lap timer: Push yourself to the limit with our GPS enabled lap counter which allows you to track your lap times at any circuit.

All the above features will be available through our premium subscription plan, and certain features such as 24/7 internet connectivity, number of ride modes, adjustability and navigation are limited if you choose the free plan. All plans will automatically receive the latest over-air software updates and new customers are offered a one-month free trial of the premium plan. You will be able to select or update your plan in the Stark VARG app.
------------------



From: support@starkfuture.com <support@starkfuture.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 2:25 AM
Subject: RE: Varg Premium subscription vs Free subscription

Hi Chad,

Thank you for contacting Stark and for your feedback. It is greatly appreciated by all of us here at Stark Future.
The subscription packages and features are not yet fully decided. However, most core functionalities should be available for free. This will be communicated at a later stage, closer to the first deliveries date.
We take this opportunity to thank you for your support and trust in Stark Future, and patiently waiting for your VARG’s.
Please let us know if there’s anything else we can assist you with.

Best regards,
Stark Support Team

 

[Number Six]

I'd wager that Stark knows their market well & wont venture too far into the weeds regarding paid subscriptions.
Seems the explanation currently on the website is fairly straightforward, although as mentioned ; subject to change prior to bikes being delivered.
The one thing on the shared email above though is the mention of being able to check battery level remaining via the paid subscription, surely that would be a function of standard software ?

 

[Number Six]

 

[Warren]

Varg discussed this from the beginning. They will be offering a subscription for extended services, mainly around the features on the display/gauge. Owners will get certain permanent features and some will be unlocked with subscriptions. Things like Navigation, storing 100 modes, and certain advanced track features such as "air time". We don't know how many bike profiles we'll get without the subscription but I would assume/hope it is at least 5 since that is how many you can store on the bike at a given time.

The 60hp to 80hp was announced as a purchase; not subscriptions, but I guess they could always change that. Personally, I hate this subscription thing creeping into vehicles. Want heated seats? Oh you have them, but if you want them to work, you'll have to pay monthly. I won't do it. From the original Varg announcements on subscriptions, there is nothing there I would subscribe to and enjoy the bike without it, even if they are neat features. If any fundamentals require a subscription, that will push me over the edge and I'll just cancel the few Varg I have on order and go buy a new ICE bikes.

You have me curious if they updated any info on subscriptions so I'll go poke around their ever changing website....

I got 890r Ktm adventure and same thing. U got its to cost for dealer to activate it

 

[Rashid510]

So its an android phone...does it talk wifi or bluetooth?

 

[AL_V]

So its an android phone...does it talk wifi or bluetooth?

I think it communicates by BT with the bike, but I'm sure the phone can connect to a wifi source in range.

 

[fsfs]

So its an android phone...does it talk wifi or bluetooth?

The android app talks via bluetooth -- in initial testing that ended up working better than WiFi.

There is also an "engineering interface" that we developed independent of the app where we use WiFi and it is web based. It is HTML5 + WebSockets (bike has a little web-server running in the VCU). We know how to do this within the core powertrain electronics team. So whatever we want to quickly add we can without pestering the app team. The engineering interface was the one running during "media days".

 

[fsfs]

Oh, and one more thing.

We've been told "write the firmware so that the bike can work just fine without the phone". I don't know what decisions are (or will) be taken with regards to premium subscriptions and such things. What I do know is that on a technical level there is no real dependence on the phone.

 

[Rashid510]

Does the display have any connection to the vehicle? For example, Altas need all modules to be "handshaked" via CAN for the vehicle to function. If persay a Stark owner had there display damaged or removed, can the bike still function?