Top Fairing screws


Trialsman

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I remove most bolts when the bike is new and my friends laugh at me. Bolts will get Loctite if they need to keep tight or might be in jeprody of loosening over time. Inserts where galvanic reaction might occur, because of the dissimilar metals, will get Anti-seize. It also helps acquaint yourself with the workings/design of the bike and has worked for me.
 

TeslaRaptor

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What boggles my mind is the number of owners/dealers/racers/users not understanding how to torque bolts. Why do the brass inserts strip? Y'all like to torque them way too much. The torque that is needed for the hardware to clamp down is 4Nm (35 in-lbs). That isnt that much with a human torque wrench...

What is the average torque for KTM plastic?

The story I got on this 2018 MXR was that it was used as a demo bike by the dealership owner's adult son...who was "very experienced in the MX and snow racing worlds"....and every place that I have now discovered a brass insert has been stripped. Every single one of them. Clearly some folks do not follow the torque guidelines.

New delta wing on the way from Liquid Perm....new fairings.....so will try my luck at not stripping them. My current torque wrench doesn't go down below 10 Nm...so will have to but another smaller one. Anyone have a fav 'small' torque wrench. I prefer to buy quality tools vs the cheapest on Amazon...in case that makes a difference.
 

Trialsman

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The Permatex aluminum Anti-seize is the one I use for most things. I also have a can of the copper based variety which is used for high heat areas like heat shields, head flanges, some top end engine bolts, and none of which are found on our Altas.
 

Rashid510

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I remove most bolts when the bike is new and my friends laugh at me. Bolts will get Loctite if they need to keep tight or might be in jeprody of loosening over time. Inserts where galvanic reaction might occur, because of the dissimilar metals, will get Anti-seize. It also helps acquaint yourself with the workings/design of the bike and has worked for me.

If I recall, the Euro bolt hardware has some properties to help with corrosion...I could be off since that may have been specific for the fork bolts.

I have ranted about the excessive usage of lockpatch (Loctite patch on the Alta hardware per Bossard specifications) and Anti-seize was never really needed...if the bolts were not over torqued (pattern!)

My current torque wrench doesn't go down below 10 Nm...so will have to but another smaller one. Anyone have a fav 'small' torque wrench. I prefer to buy quality tools vs the cheapest on Amazon...in case that makes a difference.

Amazon.com

Before we started using QX Tools from Ingersoll Rand (automated fancy torque tools) we used those Wera hand screwdrivers all over the production line.
 

F451

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What boggles my mind is the number of owners/dealers/racers/users not understanding how to torque bolts. Why do the brass inserts strip? Y'all like to torque them way too much. The torque that is needed for the hardware to clamp down is 4Nm (35 in-lbs). That isnt that much with a human torque wrench...

What is the average torque for KTM plastic?

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not looking to antagonize you, but I would imagine that literally no one knows the average torque for the KTM plastics fasteners because it never occurs to anyone that they would need to know/use that torque spec. I have literally never looked up a torque spec for plastics fasteners and have never heard of anyone looking it up, or asking about it.

The fact that owners/dealers/racers/users are stripping the inserts on the Altas says more about the unusual design choice to use those tiny, guaranteed to spin, brass inserts in this application then all these seemingly very experienced people torquing them too much.

I think if I saw someone going at their plastics fasteners with a torque wrench I'd be like "Whoa, slow down there partner, what are you doing?" Lol.

Just about every other dirt bike out there uses the same basic types of plastics fasteners and they work fine, I don't know why Alta did not adopt those same designs. And yes, those inserts can spin too, or the threads can get stripped from ham-fisted efforts, but its way less likely then with the Altas where its pretty much a guarantee that they will spin.

I love my Alta and think the design and engineering is amazing, but there are few areas that are not well designed/implemented and the tiny brass plastics inserts are one of them. The tiny spacers on the side number plates, same thing, a bad design decision IMO.
 

Rashid510

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No offense taken at all.
I posed the question because I rarely hear or see of other plastics getting wrecked/destroyed. My Vstrom 650 uses button head fasteners with indicated torque values in service manual/VStrom forums. When I left Zero and went to Alta, the same thought was in my mind when those plastic pieces were being torqued. (Plenty of plastic got wrecked at Zero as well...whole different can of worms with PEM inserts)

Why I mention KTM is because most dirtbike owners end up using similar specs. But those inserts do not require that much clamp force in the first place. Which is why the head scratching is there.

If you look at the front bulkhead, there is a spot for the fairing to clamp on and that works fantastically. The FBH does not really play itself for mounting plastics. Hence why the deltawing strips.

The rear subframe, thats a PITA. I hated the process of building that thing. Also using the silly inserts. If you have built up a rear-subframe the fitment it is not…perfect.

Overall, yes for a first pass of a an electric dirtbike, those areas could have been refined. But alas, it will move on hopefully.
 

Judaslefourbe

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I would add that it's not because people do not read the manual to maintain their bike that makes the design "bad."
I mean, how many people have put their cellphone in the microwave...?!
 

TeslaRaptor

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I am new to dirt bikes...and wrench turning....I do not know what I am doing...so I regularly consult said manuals. On my Husky TC125 and TC250 I didn't consult the manual for something as simple as removing/installing the plastics...and was successful at doing so on both bike. The fact that I have to consult the manual for something as simple as that on the Alta raises questions on the design. We all know that if we had a time machine this part of the design of the bike would be done differently. My current focus is how to best utilize the design as it is...or modify it in a way that will have it last for years to come.

Appreciate all the experience folks are willing to share to help others. New delta-wing arrives at the end of the week...and the used/demo MXR will start getting reassembled....so more questions/recommendations to come. <big smile>
 

snydes

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As I recall from old discussions Alta did at one point come to the realization that the use of these inserts wasn’t going to handle the abuse that a dirt bike was going to receive. I’d say it was more of a poor choice than horrible design. They had such large quantities of plastic already purchased though that they were effectively locked into having to deal with it until their inventory was exhausted.

But when you go to take your dirt bike apart and can’t because literally every connection point for the plastic is damaged, you tend to want to lynch the designer. That’s to be expected.

Having said all that, I’ll end with this just to jab my Alta buddies a little. No offense guys!
5A3D614E-58DF-4EC2-B54A-4A8B9CAD456E.jpeg
 

F451

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My current focus is how to best utilize the design as it is...or modify it in a way that will have it last for years to come.

Well said, and we're all in the same boat on this one.

My strategy is avoid removing any of the plastics at all costs. I only touch them if I have to. No taking them off for deep cleaning, always considering whether or not I REALLY need to remove them before I touch them, etc. If I do remove them, I treat them like kid gloves and very, very carefully re-install and gingerly snug them down and just hope I don't have the inserts spin on me.

I do fully expect that they will spin on me at some point, and then I will revisit the issue. My first choice would probably be to try to epoxy back in the inserts, maybe add a small metal rod perpendicular to the torque forces as has been done by members here (nice work btw).

Second and probably more permanent, but more of a hassle, would be to try to epoxy in larger bolts/nutserts along the lines of what KTM, Honda, Yamaha, and every other mfr is currently using without issue for the last what, 20 years?

Having said all that, I’ll end with this just to jab my Alta buddies a little. No offense guys!
View attachment 6288

You're killing me here Snydes, Lol
 

Rashid510

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I do fully expect that they will spin on me at some point, and then I will revisit the issue. My first choice would probably be to try to epoxy back in the inserts, maybe add a small metal rod perpendicular to the torque forces as has been done by members here (nice work btw).

The only time I personally have had a insert spin in on me is....over torque. Ham fisting the dang fastener into the plastic. Luckily plastic pieces are available..which means replacements isnt end of the world.
 

F451

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The only time I personally have had a insert spin in on me is....over torque. Ham fisting the dang fastener into the plastic. Luckily plastic pieces are available..which means replacements isnt end of the world.

Yes, over torquing a poorly designed fastener set up that was designed for a torque wrench to be used on, Lol.

If you're trying to blame the owners on this one, good luck with that.

There's a reason every single other major dirt bike mfr does not use tiny little brass inserts on their plastics and doesn't require the use of torque wrench to snug the fasteners up, and the reason is obvious the first time you wrench on the Alta plastics.

But I'm a broken record here, so I will try to stop boring people after this comment. You can blame the users all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that its a poor design and manufacturing choice.

And as mentioned, for the moment we have spares available fortunately, and we have some very talented and resourceful owners to help us figure out how to work around the deficiency of the design, so yes, not the end of the world.
 

Rashid510

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Yes, over torquing a poorly designed fastener set up that was designed for a torque wrench to be used on, Lol.

If you're trying to blame the owners on this one, good luck with that.

There's a reason every single other major dirt bike mfr does not use tiny little brass inserts on their plastics and doesn't require the use of torque wrench to snug the fasteners up, and the reason is obvious the first time you wrench on the Alta plastics.

But I'm a broken record here, so I will try to stop boring people after this comment. You can blame the users all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that its a poor design and manufacturing choice.

And as mentioned, for the moment we have spares available fortunately, and we have some very talented and resourceful owners to help us figure out how to work around the deficiency of the design, so yes, not the end of the world.

Hmmm seems to be broken record forsure. In MFG we used torque wrenches. Beyond that you can use any tightening device. If you "snug" the plastics that should not lead to over torqueing. FYI not once did I blame users. This issue gets consistently brought up and ends up leading to the same root cause (bad design/process, (sticky the damn thing at this point)).
 

Jayfox911

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To be honest most people just don’t want the bolt or screw to fall out while riding and don’t think about the next disassembly. that was me and most modern dirt bike riders, we are not using torque wrenches to take seat off and on or plastic if switching graphics etc.

But now I have lost a few screws in the Alta rear number plates and rear fender because I didn’t want the brass insert to fail but instead I lost the screw. Not sure which is better but at least the insert is still there and waiting for the next screw to fall out haha
 

Jared

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To be honest most people just don’t want the bolt or screw to fall out while riding and don’t think about the next disassembly. that was me and most modern dirt bike riders, we are not using torque wrenches to take seat off and on or plastic if switching graphics etc.

But now I have lost a few screws in the Alta rear number plates and rear fender because I didn’t want the brass insert to fail but instead I lost the screw. Not sure which is better but at least the insert is still there and waiting for the next screw to fall out haha
If you rub a little permatex gasket sealer (I use ultra black) on the threads of the screws before installing them, they will not vibrate out even if you tighten them to less than the torque spec. and they will not corrode or seize in place.
 

Trialsman

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Anti-seize lubricates the fastener but it can still work loose. It is also possible, because of the lubricating quality, to over-torque the fastener if not careful. Silicon can be used when you want to protect the threads and keep the fastener from backing out, but possibly only have minimal pressure (or even no pressure) on the pieces. Anti-seize will stay on the part until cleaned with solvent while silicon will shear, ball up, and will need to be reapplied to be effective for repeated uses.
 

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