Stark Battery Tech Thread

Bold claims doesn't begin to cover it.
They're already known to over hype, like their "real world range world record" (see Ride Apart link above, that was done at an average speed under 20 km/h, which is ridiculous).

Eagerly waiting for real world tests, if this thing is real, we will know quite soon.
 
Verge motorcycles have been around since 2019 (before they took this name), I think they've been taking preorders since 2021 and I'm not sure how many motorcycles they have delivered yet (if they have delivered any).

Worldwide they have a grand total of 5 "stores": 3 in California plus 2 in Germany.

Delivery for the world's first solid state battery bikes will supposedly begin in Q1 2026. We shall see how this turns out in the next couple of months.
 
Yep, you can see a Blueish color at the begining, that in a normal use will be the charging state but not in this case

Also they are using the MX mapswitch, maybe for weight saving? :unsure::LOL:

View attachment 15456
That would be a great back-up for when you crash the phone. Now just something to activate that.

The MX buttons somehow are less prone to sticking (oddly since it is the same). Also it sticks out less.
 
Maybe the over hype is real, but even if the charging cycles are 10,000 instead of 100,000, it's still an impressive improvement over the 500 of the Varg's lithium battery.

400 Wh/kg density is definitely true, and that density is already more than achieved with solid-state batteries. I think they exaggerate the most in the numbers and data from the range tests, but achieving 11 kWh in the Varg with this technology and ultra-fast charging, i think many of us would be more than happy. Or maybe a 8/9kwh battery with less weight for those who complain on that.


AAAAND, i found this article of SS problems, is in spanish, so i just use google translator for you:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dendrites also appear inside solid electrolytes
A team from the Technical University of Munich (TUM) has discovered an unexpected phenomenon that directly impacts the future of lithium-metal batteries with solid electrolytes. Dendrites, microscopic, needle-like metallic structures that can pierce internal layers and cause short circuits, don't just form at the interface between the electrode and the electrolyte—which was the assumption of virtually the entire industry. It has now been shown that they can also grow inside solid polymer electrolytes, precisely in the material that should prevent their formation.

Dendrites also appear in internal regions that were previously considered completely safe.
Polymeric electrolytes, made from plastic, transport lithium ions between the anode and cathode, just like a liquid electrolyte, but with greater stability and much greater safety: they don't ignite, they don't leak, and they separate the electrodes more reliably and safely. In fact, they are key to developing truly safe solid-state batteries.

The surprise comes from the fact that these electrolytes, which should act as a barrier, are also being penetrated by dendrites, and are even being generated within them. According to physicist Fabian Apfelbeck, lead author of the study published in Nature, measurements show that dendrite growth can begin inside the polymer electrolyte itself, far from any interface with the electrodes.

This result challenges one of the basic hypotheses of battery research. Professor Peter Müller-Buschbaum, head of the Chair of Functional Materials at TUM, summarizes it clearly: until now, it was assumed that dendrites only appeared at the boundary between materials. Seeing them grow "inside" forces a complete rethink, from the compounds used to the testing methods.

Why this matters: Solid-state batteries are not infallible
Solid-state batteries are the next big technological leap: they offer greater energy density (much longer runtime without increasing size) and greater safety thanks to the elimination of the flammable liquid electrolyte. But in practice, their development has been slow: stability and durability, but above all the enormous cost of mass production, remain unresolved problems. Now, this discovery adds an additional challenge.

An extremely precise technique using nanoscale X-ray scattering was required.
To visualize this microscopic behavior, the team of scientists used an extremely precise technique: wide-angle X-ray scattering with nanofocus at the German Electron Synchrotron DESY in Hamburg. With a beam of just 350 nanometers, they were able to observe for the first time how the interior of the polymer electrolyte changed in real time during charge and discharge cycles. To this end, they even developed a miniature cell capable of functioning like a real battery under X-ray diffraction.

The results were clear: dendrites appear not only in expected areas but also in internal regions that were previously considered completely safe. This has a direct and worrying consequence: using a solid electrolyte does not automatically guarantee that a solid-state battery is immune to short circuits. Therefore, a solid-state battery does not have zero risk of fire, as was generally assumed. This discovery necessitates redesigning materials, internal architectures, and testing protocols to prevent unwanted crystallization at the heart of the electrolyte."
 
Maybe the over hype is real, but even if the charging cycles are 10,000 instead of 100,000, it's still an impressive improvement over the 500 of the Varg's lithium battery.

400 Wh/kg density is definitely true, and that density is already more than achieved with solid-state batteries. I think they exaggerate the most in the numbers and data from the range tests, but achieving 11 kWh in the Varg with this technology and ultra-fast charging, i think many of us would be more than happy. Or maybe a 8/9kwh battery with less weight for those who complain on that.


AAAAND, i found this article of SS problems, is in spanish, so i just use google translator for you:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dendrites also appear inside solid electrolytes
A team from the Technical University of Munich (TUM) has discovered an unexpected phenomenon that directly impacts the future of lithium-metal batteries with solid electrolytes. Dendrites, microscopic, needle-like metallic structures that can pierce internal layers and cause short circuits, don't just form at the interface between the electrode and the electrolyte—which was the assumption of virtually the entire industry. It has now been shown that they can also grow inside solid polymer electrolytes, precisely in the material that should prevent their formation.

Dendrites also appear in internal regions that were previously considered completely safe.
Polymeric electrolytes, made from plastic, transport lithium ions between the anode and cathode, just like a liquid electrolyte, but with greater stability and much greater safety: they don't ignite, they don't leak, and they separate the electrodes more reliably and safely. In fact, they are key to developing truly safe solid-state batteries.

The surprise comes from the fact that these electrolytes, which should act as a barrier, are also being penetrated by dendrites, and are even being generated within them. According to physicist Fabian Apfelbeck, lead author of the study published in Nature, measurements show that dendrite growth can begin inside the polymer electrolyte itself, far from any interface with the electrodes.

This result challenges one of the basic hypotheses of battery research. Professor Peter Müller-Buschbaum, head of the Chair of Functional Materials at TUM, summarizes it clearly: until now, it was assumed that dendrites only appeared at the boundary between materials. Seeing them grow "inside" forces a complete rethink, from the compounds used to the testing methods.

Why this matters: Solid-state batteries are not infallible
Solid-state batteries are the next big technological leap: they offer greater energy density (much longer runtime without increasing size) and greater safety thanks to the elimination of the flammable liquid electrolyte. But in practice, their development has been slow: stability and durability, but above all the enormous cost of mass production, remain unresolved problems. Now, this discovery adds an additional challenge.

An extremely precise technique using nanoscale X-ray scattering was required.
To visualize this microscopic behavior, the team of scientists used an extremely precise technique: wide-angle X-ray scattering with nanofocus at the German Electron Synchrotron DESY in Hamburg. With a beam of just 350 nanometers, they were able to observe for the first time how the interior of the polymer electrolyte changed in real time during charge and discharge cycles. To this end, they even developed a miniature cell capable of functioning like a real battery under X-ray diffraction.

The results were clear: dendrites appear not only in expected areas but also in internal regions that were previously considered completely safe. This has a direct and worrying consequence: using a solid electrolyte does not automatically guarantee that a solid-state battery is immune to short circuits. Therefore, a solid-state battery does not have zero risk of fire, as was generally assumed. This discovery necessitates redesigning materials, internal architectures, and testing protocols to prevent unwanted cryst

Maybe the over hype is real, but even if the charging cycles are 10,000 instead of 100,000, it's still an impressive improvement over the 500 of the Varg's lithium battery.

400 Wh/kg density is definitely true, and that density is already more than achieved with solid-state batteries. I think they exaggerate the most in the numbers and data from the range tests, but achieving 11 kWh in the Varg with this technology and ultra-fast charging, i think many of us would be more than happy. Or maybe a 8/9kwh battery with less weight for those who complain on that.


AAAAND, i found this article of SS problems, is in spanish, so i just use google translator for you:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dendrites also appear inside solid electrolytes
A team from the Technical University of Munich (TUM) has discovered an unexpected phenomenon that directly impacts the future of lithium-metal batteries with solid electrolytes. Dendrites, microscopic, needle-like metallic structures that can pierce internal layers and cause short circuits, don't just form at the interface between the electrode and the electrolyte—which was the assumption of virtually the entire industry. It has now been shown that they can also grow inside solid polymer electrolytes, precisely in the material that should prevent their formation.

Dendrites also appear in internal regions that were previously considered completely safe.
Polymeric electrolytes, made from plastic, transport lithium ions between the anode and cathode, just like a liquid electrolyte, but with greater stability and much greater safety: they don't ignite, they don't leak, and they separate the electrodes more reliably and safely. In fact, they are key to developing truly safe solid-state batteries.

The surprise comes from the fact that these electrolytes, which should act as a barrier, are also being penetrated by dendrites, and are even being generated within them. According to physicist Fabian Apfelbeck, lead author of the study published in Nature, measurements show that dendrite growth can begin inside the polymer electrolyte itself, far from any interface with the electrodes.

This result challenges one of the basic hypotheses of battery research. Professor Peter Müller-Buschbaum, head of the Chair of Functional Materials at TUM, summarizes it clearly: until now, it was assumed that dendrites only appeared at the boundary between materials. Seeing them grow "inside" forces a complete rethink, from the compounds used to the testing methods.

Why this matters: Solid-state batteries are not infallible
Solid-state batteries are the next big technological leap: they offer greater energy density (much longer runtime without increasing size) and greater safety thanks to the elimination of the flammable liquid electrolyte. But in practice, their development has been slow: stability and durability, but above all the enormous cost of mass production, remain unresolved problems. Now, this discovery adds an additional challenge.

An extremely precise technique using nanoscale X-ray scattering was required.
To visualize this microscopic behavior, the team of scientists used an extremely precise technique: wide-angle X-ray scattering with nanofocus at the German Electron Synchrotron DESY in Hamburg. With a beam of just 350 nanometers, they were able to observe for the first time how the interior of the polymer electrolyte changed in real time during charge and discharge cycles. To this end, they even developed a miniature cell capable of functioning like a real battery under X-ray diffraction.

The results were clear: dendrites appear not only in expected areas but also in internal regions that were previously considered completely safe. This has a direct and worrying consequence: using a solid electrolyte does not automatically guarantee that a solid-state battery is immune to short circuits. Therefore, a solid-state battery does not have zero risk of fire, as was generally assumed. This discovery necessitates redesigning materials, internal architectures, and testing protocols to prevent unwanted crystallization at the heart of the electrolyte."
Interesting. Dendritic growth is a subtle problem in many electronic environments. I am more familiar with it in PCBs than batteries but I can see how that might happen.
 
No one knows if 400 Wh/kg is true, except Donut.

We won't know until they become available to the media and the general public (with or without a Verge around it).
 
No one knows if 400 Wh/kg is true, except Donut.

We won't know until they become available to the media and the general public (with or without a Verge around it).
The 400 Wh/kg barrier has already been broken by several manufacturers, primarily in Asia

Samsung SDI has confirmed mass production by the end of 2026 of cells that reach up to 500 Wh/kg. Samsung is collaborating closely with brands like BMW to integrate this technology into their upcoming flagship models. They claim a life expectancy up to 20 years or 2,000 charge and discharge cycles, it could travel about 1.9 million kilometers without a significant loss of capacity. The 100.000 cycles of DONUT seems out of this world, who knows...

GAC Group & Sunwoda have launched pilot production lines. Sunwoda already manufactures 400 Wh/kg cells and has laboratory samples reaching 700 Wh/kg

Huawei & SAIC have recently patented and presented advancements in sulfide electrolytes that allow for densities between 400 and 500 Wh/kg

Solid state is advancing faster than lithium, lets wait and see
 
The 400 Wh/kg barrier has already been broken by several manufacturers, primarily in Asia

Solid state is advancing faster than lithium, lets wait and see
Solid state batteries have been in development for a long time. Of course lots of claims over the years but my point is that there isn't a single 400 Wh/kg battery available to this day (a point well made by Donut guy in the vid). It exists in labs, companies are investing big and claiming it will soon come to market, been like that for years, we're still in this phase at the moment. Hopefully not for another 10 years.

To be slightly pedantic, most solid state batteries in development use lithium anode just like any standard lithium ion battery. Donut claim of abundant materials is as intriguing as it is vague (I'm pretty confident they're not using sodium).
 
Another quick question from me. Does anybody know the Nett and Gross capacity of the Stark battery's?
Not sure that answers your question but I remember Anton Wass saying that when they've switched from 6.5 to 7.2 kWh, 10% increase in capacity translated to about 20% range because of lots of improvements, including getting usable capacity closer to nominal capacity. Ofc he didn't give any numbers (and they're yet to disclose what batteries are used in the 7.2 pack).
 
5 kWh and 14kg... I think 2 of this could fit on the varg with no problem... that will be 10kwh with the same 28kg

View attachment 15725

Cool and 350 Wh/kg instead of 400 is probably simply due to the fact that this is the specification for the assembled pack including the case.
Still, they don't show the power density. Even with liquid electrolytes there are tradeoffs: a cell can be more energy dense but less power dense; remember when we compared Molicel P50B and M65A? 3.6 V as nominal voltage in both cases and 260 Wh/kg for the former, 322 Wh/kg for the latter. The continuous discharge current is 60 A for the former and, unfortunately, only 26 A for the latter.
Now that I think about it, it would be cool if Stark Future offered the possibility to choose between a less powerful Varg with more capacity for enduro and a more powerful with less capacity for motocross., for example using either P50B or M65A.
 
Cool and 350 Wh/kg instead of 400 is probably simply due to the fact that this is the specification for the assembled pack including the case.
Still, they don't show the power density. Even with liquid electrolytes there are tradeoffs: a cell can be more energy dense but less power dense; remember when we compared Molicel P50B and M65A? 3.6 V as nominal voltage in both cases and 260 Wh/kg for the former, 322 Wh/kg for the latter. The continuous discharge current is 60 A for the former and, unfortunately, only 26 A for the latter.
Now that I think about it, it would be cool if Stark Future offered the possibility to choose between a less powerful Varg with more capacity for enduro and a more powerful with less capacity for motocross., for example using either P50B or M65A.
yes, im with you

This Donut batteries are designed for high-power motorcycles, the Verge TS Pro model has 102kW/137hp, so the power density and discharge current should be sufficient for a plataform like the Varg
 
yes, im with you

This Donut batteries are designed for high-power motorcycles, the Verge TS Pro model has 102kW/137hp, so the power density and discharge current should be sufficient for a plataform like the Varg

Well, they get that power from a 33 kWh battey pack. I don't know wether the power is limited by the motor or by the battery, but if it's the battery, then the maximum power for a 10 kWh pack could be like 40 or 45 HP. However, the charging power is 200 kW, so hopefully the discharging power is at least as much and in that case the 80 HP Varg should be feasible again.
It's just weird that they don't state that piece of data.
 
I wonder if those Verge/Donut guys have considered using that Donut motor for the front wheel on a motorcycle for all wheel drive. The things my imagination allows me to do with my all-wheel drive Stark Varg in the gnarl are well...unspeakable.
:cool:
 
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