3 issues with my Stark Varg in 1 week.

[F451]

Just speculating here, but shipping a battery of unknown condition seems like a big risk, not even sure the carriers would allow it on their trucks, ships, planes, etc. Not to mention the high cost to get it back to Spain to have it checked out. Not sure how much remote visibility Stark has into the mechanical state of the battery and associated components, but if they shipped a "bad" battery and it somehow resulted in a fire, I would imagine Stark would be liable for damages, and god forbid someone got hurt or worse.

I wonder if Stark is considering setting up a repair type tech facility here in the US that could diagnose battery/electronic issues? If not, they should. Taking it further, doing repairs and reconditioning of batteries, electronics, and motors would also make sense. If Stark doesn't do it, perhaps some enterprising people will take it on.

I don't see your typical motorcycle dealerships offering these service, but perhaps they will some day.

I know there are some electric bicycle motor repair operations here in the US and in the UK (probably Europe too) that service electric bicycle motors (and sell rebuild components), I guess its only a matter of time before someone starts doing this for e-dirt bikes, especially if the dealerships don't get into this business.

 

[wfopete]

To be clear, I don't believe the battery itself is bad, rather the software/hardware that contained in those cases.

The BMS would likely show if a battery cell(s) had a problem. BTW my battery was shipped out of TX where Stark has a distribution center located.

 

[Chaconne]

To be clear, I don't believe the battery itself is bad, rather the software/hardware that contained in those cases.

The BMS would likely show if a battery cell(s) had a problem. BTW my battery was shipped out of TX where Stark has a distribution center located.

That the batteries went bad after a firmware update is highly suspicious and points to software rather than hardware. Somebody likely mucked up their Arm assembly code optimization. Been there done that.

 

[rayivers]

the batteries went bad after a firmware update

How exactly does this happen? The battery firmware is faulty, and then cannot be overwritten or rolled back after updating? This happened to at least one e-MC manufacturer I know of.

 

[Theo]

Just speculating here, but shipping a battery of unknown condition seems like a big risk, not even sure the carriers would allow it on their trucks, ships, planes, etc. Not to mention the high cost to get it back to Spain to have it checked out. Not sure how much remote visibility Stark has into the mechanical state of the battery and associated components, but if they shipped a "bad" battery and it somehow resulted in a fire, I would imagine Stark would be liable for damages, and god forbid someone got hurt or worse.

I wonder if Stark is considering setting up a repair type tech facility here in the US that could diagnose battery/electronic issues? If not, they should. Taking it further, doing repairs and reconditioning of batteries, electronics, and motors would also make sense. If Stark doesn't do it, perhaps some enterprising people will take it on.

I don't see your typical motorcycle dealerships offering these service, but perhaps they will some day.

I know there are some electric bicycle motor repair operations here in the US and in the UK (probably Europe too) that service electric bicycle motors (and sell rebuild components), I guess its only a matter of time before someone starts doing this for e-dirt bikes, especially if the dealerships don't get into this business.

All this makes sense, but if the alternative is to leave a dangerous battery at someone's house, well, that could result in injuries, deaths, or other troubles, too. Besides, I don't know about you but personally I'm not sure about the legal way in which I would be supposed to dispose of an EV battery, where I live.

 

[Chaconne]

How exactly does this happen? The battery firmware is faulty, and then cannot be overwritten or rolled back after updating? This happened to at least one e-MC manufacturer I know of.

Typically yes it can be rolled back. But if the update causes damage to physical parts say like a bus or a chip (usually by overheating) then it is toast. BTW just to be clear the programming causes an issue in the circuitry. Remember firmware can often be directly controlling hardware and sometimes in lab QA/diagnostics doesn't catch everything. Seen chips go to smoking hot and burn a tech's finger and nothing detected it until he touched it.

 

[rayivers]

How

Typically yes it can be rolled back. But if the update causes damage to physical parts say like a bus or a chip (usually by overheating) then it is toast. BTW just to be clear the programming causes an issue in the circuitry. Remember firmware can often be directly controlling hardware and sometimes in lab QA/diagnostics doesn't catch everything. Seen chips go to smoking hot and burn a tech's finger and nothing detected it until he touched it.

Oh OK, now I get it - thanks for the clarification. Wow, I guess bad firmware updates could maybe fry a lot of stuff on the bike.

 

[ReVolter]

Hey tim, I’m just reading your thread. My bike will not charge 110/120 with the stark oem adapter. My bike would not charge my phone in the docking station, until very recent with an app update. Also my bike/ stand, charger will mildly shock me when the charger is in a 220/240 outlet. Regardless if plugged in bike.My electrician said my plug from charger is improperly wired. I/ we are not touching anything till I hear from Stark. Can you explain to me what was wrong with your plug? And did you have 110 charging problems as well? All of my outlets being utilized for charging the bike are all new and they are actually on their independent own circuit, including the 110. To describe the shocking it’s similar like if you put a 9 V battery on your tongue, but a little bit more significant. The crazy thing is it actually transmitted through the rear fender of the bike as well, which doesn’t make any sense at all. I’m waiting to hear back but just curious what did you find wrong with your plug?

Some of the chargers shipped with improperly wired plugs. The insulation on my was not stripped back far enough and the wires were being clamped on the insulation. I didn't find out until my plug melted because of the poor connections. I have replaced it with a new L14-30 plug which I purchased locally. I think Stark will be sending me a new cable after I reported the problem. The wires not making proper contact in the plug could be your problem.

 

[ReVolter]

Just speculating here, but shipping a battery of unknown condition seems like a big risk, not even sure the carriers would allow it on their trucks, ships, planes, etc. Not to mention the high cost to get it back to Spain to have it checked out. Not sure how much remote visibility Stark has into the mechanical state of the battery and associated components, but if they shipped a "bad" battery and it somehow resulted in a fire, I would imagine Stark would be liable for damages, and god forbid someone got hurt or worse.

I wonder if Stark is considering setting up a repair type tech facility here in the US that could diagnose battery/electronic issues? If not, they should. Taking it further, doing repairs and reconditioning of batteries, electronics, and motors would also make sense. If Stark doesn't do it, perhaps some enterprising people will take it on.

I don't see your typical motorcycle dealerships offering these service, but perhaps they will some day.

I know there are some electric bicycle motor repair operations here in the US and in the UK (probably Europe too) that service electric bicycle motors (and sell rebuild components), I guess its only a matter of time before someone starts doing this for e-dirt bikes, especially if the dealerships don't get into this business.

I did a battery swap in Canada and shipped back the old one under warranty. Just remember to print the hazardous material documents in color and triplicate. Don't attach them to the packaging. The battery swap didn't fix all my problems, but they had diagnosed the bike remotely and decided I needed a new battery. Later, I had a 1 hour zoom session with a technician in Spain and he was remotely connected to my bike. I determined that the problem was that the power button was getting stuck in the pressed position randomly.

All this makes sense, but if the alternative is to leave a dangerous battery at someone's house, well, that could result in injuries, deaths, or other troubles, too. Besides, I don't know about you but personally I'm not sure about the legal way in which I would be supposed to dispose of an EV battery, where I live.

 

[Chaconne]

I did a battery swap in Canada and shipped back the old one under warranty. Just remember to print the hazardous material documents in color and triplicate. Don't attach them to the packaging. The battery swap didn't fix all my problems, but they had diagnosed the bike remotely and decided I needed a new battery. Later, I had a 1 hour zoom session with a technician in Spain and he was remotely connected to my bike. I determined that the problem was that the power button was getting stuck in the pressed position randomly.

I have posted in a few spots about the power button, it is very susceptible to dirt intrusion and will cause undefined behavior once it starts to stick (like leaving you dead way out in the woods). It is very easy to do too. One get off and your handlebars go deep into soft terrain or mud and there will likely be dirt intrusion. Fortunately it is an easy fix to install a new one. I bought 2 just in case it was over 100.00 for 2.

I wonder if you even needed that battery swap? The power button is going to need a redesign I think, not every use case is on a track where a truck is relatively close. I was far out in the woods alone when my bike died and then kept on cycling into update mode and other weirdness, after pushing the bike for a while out of frustration I found some very sharp rose briers and ran them around the edge of the button and the housing by doing this I was able to break the stickiness enough to make an escape.

One final note I am going to put a master link in my chain for emergencies, I don't carry a chain breaker in my tool kit and pushing the Stark is like pushing an ICE bike stuck in gear with only the clutch for disengagement as it is.

 

[wfopete]

Good stuff. I'm not going to buy a part that all ready has a problem but I understand your need. I think Stark will likely redesign numerous components of the bike in the near future and the aftermarket will grow also. I can see a "Top Ten tips" or "Prepping your Varg for Off Road" articles coming out from various media source soon.

I was riding my Varg in slow technical terrain with several demanding hill climbs while in 90 degree weather. Twice the bike went into stand by mode after failing a climb and wrestling it around. It would not power back up for several minutes. I figured the motor got hot but I don't know for sure, I was starting to get a little worried that I would have to leave my bike in the woods a hike out. Needs to be a way of being able to monitor the temp of the motor and such.

 

[Chaconne]

Good stuff. I'm not going to buy a part that all ready has a problem but I understand your need. I think Stark will likely redesign numerous components of the bike in the near future and the aftermarket will grow also. I can see a "Top Ten tips" or "Prepping your Varg for Off Road" articles coming out from various media source soon.

I was riding my Varg in slow technical terrain with several demanding hill climbs while in 90 degree weather. Twice the bike went into stand by mode after failing a climb and wrestling it around. It would not power back up for several minutes. I figured the motor got hot but I don't know for sure, I was starting to get a little worried that I would have to leave my bike in the woods a hike out. Needs to be a way of being able to monitor the temp of the motor and such.

That is worrying with the hot summer upon us here on the East Coast US at least. Dying on a gnarly hill climb in 90 degree weather with humidity sucks --been there done that.

I was thinking it might be your battery rather than your motor. The motor is liquid cooled the battery is air-cooled and there have been reports of heat problems under heavy load with the battery.

 

[Tim Sharp]

Just a little update on my Varg. New battery showed up on Wednesday. Took me about 30 minutes to install by my self. Press the power button, and still nothing. The light starts out red, then changes to a bright yellow color. Once I let off the button, the light just goes completely out.
I emailed them back immediately. The replied 20 hours later, and wanted me to basically unplugged everything except the switch. I tried that. Same result. I had already told them that I tried the "can bus" reset technique. They asked me to take a video of that procedure. So I did all of that this morning and emailed the information back.
Now I probably won't hear back from them until Monday. This is the 3rd week of riding that I have missed. I received the bike on June 5th, and I have been able to ride it for about 10 minutes total.
They are suggesting now that it might be the power unit. So more than likely I will be completely disassembling the whole bike again. I pretty much already took the bike apart to grease all the chassis bearings.
VERY, VERY FRUSTRATING!

 

[Theo]

Hey I love riding, too, so I completely understand your frustration, like, I think, a lot of other people here.
I don't know you, but just maybe try and enjoy your weekend anyways and don't think about it. If you won't have an answer until monday, then don't think about it until monday.
Don't let that frustration spoil your weekend, seriously.

 

[wfopete]

It really amazes me that for all this tech they don't have anything to generate fault codes that can be retrieved by the customer.

 

[Chaconne]

Just a little update on my Varg. New battery showed up on Wednesday. Took me about 30 minutes to install by my self. Press the power button, and still nothing. The light starts out red, then changes to a bright yellow color. Once I let off the button, the light just goes completely out.
I emailed them back immediately. The replied 20 hours later, and wanted me to basically unplugged everything except the switch. I tried that. Same result. I had already told them that I tried the "can bus" reset technique. They asked me to take a video of that procedure. So I did all of that this morning and emailed the information back.
Now I probably won't hear back from them until Monday. This is the 3rd week of riding that I have missed. I received the bike on June 5th, and I have been able to ride it for about 10 minutes total.
They are suggesting now that it might be the power unit. So more than likely I will be completely disassembling the whole bike again. I pretty much already took the bike apart to grease all the chassis bearings.
VERY, VERY FRUSTRATING!

Hear you man that sucks.

Have you tried replacing the power button assembly itself? The behavior sounds similar to the behavior I saw when the button(s)/switch went bad. I replaced the whole thing it's like 60 bucks from Stark. I actually bought 2 cuz I am not losing a weekend again for that shit. Those buttons get f'd up way too easy.

Another complete disassembly is insane. Their remote diagnostics should be able to detect major issues like battery or power unit there should be no guessing on their part about that. It is probably something they don't have diags on so they are just assuming on what it is. It is expensive even for them to replace things like battery or power unit not to mention your time.

Another thing you can try is holding down the up/down for a long time like 60 seconds and see if it goes into a different mode maybe like firmware upgrade. As I mentioned before I got stranded dead out in the woods by myself and tried every hack I could to try to escape. That might give you some hints about what it is.

Pushing a dead Varg is no fun, I just hacked at the buttons with everything I could find and got it going. My only alternative was leaving my brand new bike and hiking out and I probably would died out there before I did that.

 

[Chaconne]

It really amazes me that for all this tech they don't have anything to generate fault codes that can be retrieved by the customer.

Spot on. They don't even seem to be able to get the codes themselves for what it is worth. Shipped a whole new battery and didn't solve the problem. I would get fired for something like that when the bosses got the RCA at my job at least.

 

[wfopete]

Take that sucker back to the dealer you bought it from and let them deal with it.

It's too damn hot to ride anyway.

 

[Tim Sharp]

Hear you man that sucks.

Have you tried replacing the power button assembly itself? The behavior sounds similar to the behavior I saw when the button(s)/switch went bad. I replaced the whole thing it's like 60 bucks from Stark. I actually bought 2 cuz I am not losing a weekend again for that shit. Those buttons get f'd up way too easy.

Another complete disassembly is insane. Their remote diagnostics should be able to detect major issues like battery or power unit there should be no guessing on their part about that. It is probably something they don't have diags on so they are just assuming on what it is. It is expensive even for them to replace things like battery or power unit not to mention your time.

Another thing you can try is holding down the up/down for a long time like 60 seconds and see if it goes into a different mode maybe like firmware upgrade. As I mentioned before I got stranded dead out in the woods by myself and tried every hack I could to try to escape. That might give you some hints about what it is.

Pushing a dead Varg is no fun, I just hacked at the buttons with everything I could find and got it going. My only alternative was leaving my brand new bike and hiking out and I probably would died out there before I did that.

Yes, I actually ordered a spare power button and throttle before I received the bike. I figured spares like that would be necessary to have. The new power button did nothing.
I also tried the method of holding down both mode buttons for a long time. Nothing.
I also recorded the procedure of unplugging the can bus connector on the battery, then plugging it back in while holding down the power button. Nothing.
The last email I received from Stark, they think it might be the power unit now.
But I have no confirmation that they are sending a new one.

 

[Tim Sharp]

Take that sucker back to the dealer you bought it from and let them deal with it.

It's too damn hot to ride anyway.

The bike was shipped directly to my house. I simply installed the front wheel, bars, and foot pegs.
The bike worked fine, for about 10 minutes total.