AMA and Electric Motorcycles in AMA races

[bayodome]

I'd love to see a battery module with some 250 cells that is in an easily removable bottom part of the battery. And charge separately of course.

I could see an aftermarket company making something just like this. No reason why it can't be done. Major performance upgrade $ but for the serious racer it would make sense. It'd require its own complete battery box, but it's conceivable.

 

[rayivers]

Imo one of the greatest benefits of Stark's big initial numbers is presenting themselves as a 'risk worth taking' to aftermarket-part developers, especially regarding batteries with their replaceable-cell design. I'm cautiously hopeful.

 

[Michael Anders]

Please don't confuse the FIM refusal with AMA last second rule change and their head up their own backsides.
AMA do not care about bike owners. AMA MX /SX are a pure marketing arm of the two largest motorcycle makers in the world (Honda 16 million units in 2023 and KTM and its parents some 5 million units)
The BS from FIM was conveyed on safety and lack of fire marshal training.
AMA are gutless POS pandering to Honda and KTM who both have Electric models but disagree EV should race with ICE.
I agree to disagree that MX/SX should have no separation . I guarantee that no actual AMA member gets a vote nor say in the matter and the corrupt administration pander to pressure from Red and Orange.
At least the Australian governing body ( Motorcross Aistralia) have seen the sense in letting the battle happen on the track whilst the EU and the Gutless Yanks fear the backlash.
Buch of soft coc$s if you ask me.
Rest of the world might not care what happens down under but at least we give Stark a chance to prove if they can compete or not.
Just sayin.

 

[Swank171]

And please don’t confuse your American history with spineless AMA who doesn’t represent the country whatsoever.

 

[Michael Anders]

And please don’t confuse your American history with spineless AMA who doesn’t represent the country whatsoever.

I did not confuse the AMA with all Americans nor American History.
AMA are wankers and soft Co*ks and pander to Honda and KTM.
AMA MX and SX is nothing but a marketing exercise for the big 6 off-road motorcycle makes with two of those loosing power every day.
Suzuki and Kawasaki near toothless in the play, Yamaha and the KTM group , KTM , Husky & Gas Gas -
so you might get a few Beta and maybe a sherco in the enduro or hare scramble maybe a Reiju or a Kove or maybe a Hero from India but not in SX/MX.

I do not recall the sight of a Fantic , nor a Triumph or a Cagiva ever race in 2023 in the USA.
Unless a manufacturer makes and sell 400 units in the USA it cannot race. Read your rule book.

There is no history lesson to be learned.
Your Patriotism clouds your eyesight it seems - as you read things that were not written.
AMA suck balls pure and simple.
AMA are a joke.

Oh and if it was not for Assies you yanks would have all perished in Vietnam and Korea.
Don't preach what you know nothing about young grasshopper.

 

[Michael Anders]

I have been working on EV stuff for about 20 years now. For anyone interested here are my thoughts on safety related things:

1) Biggest worry is mechanical injury. As a design engineer for the drive system I work together with people assembling, testing, and maintaining the prototypes -- people such as mechanics who are used to combustion machines. One of the projects I worked on is a tunnel rescue vehicle in Croatia:
View attachment 10793
While I was working on it there was a guy underneath it close to the drive shaft. I said "I'm gonna power up the system now, don't be underneath the vehicle anymore." He said "Why? Is it gonna shock me." I said "No, it won't shock you, but if I made a software error it might wrap you around the drive shaft." Remember Brian's videos where the cooling fan was running "for no reason?" Well, now you know the reason; everybody involved still has all their fingers. The bike "dropping out of gear" when not moving is the reason why the fan no longer constantly runs. Anyone notice that those two changes came in the same software update?

2) Second biggest is fire. I don't have access to statistics but I think a large percentage of e-bike fires are caused by a run away charger. However, fires can happen even when not charging. Once the fire starts the battery will become a chemical oxygen generator and there is little that can be done to put it out. The tunnel rescue vehicle above uses LiFePO4 cells for that reason; they start releasing oxygen at a much higher temperature than more energy dense chemistries. However, I am less concerned about fire on a bike (you just get off) than a car. People have been burned alive in car fires because they could not get out, even in gasoline powered cars -- Woman Killed After Car Locks Her Inside and Catches Fire | Entrepreneur

3) Electrocution is a distant third. Fear of this comes mainly from people not understanding the flow of electricity. Let me explain:

For you to get electrocuted you need to be part of the circuit. Electricity must flow _through_ you. Now with grid power the system is earthed/grounded. This means that you only have to touch a conductor at _one_ point for you to get electrocuted as the electricity with flow from the point where you touched the conductor, through your body, out your feet and into the earth. The _earth_ completes the circuit. For EVs with high voltage the main battery is not connected with the chassis. This isolation is an integral part of the safety of such systems and it is monitored. If you are doing your own system you can buy a board such as this:

The ISOMETER® iso-F1 IR155-3203/-3204 monitors the insulation resistance between the insulated and active HV-conductors of an electrical drive system (Un = DC 0 V…1000 V) and the reference earth (chassis ground > Kl.31). ISOMETER® IR155-3203/IR155-3204
View attachment 10794
I've done my fair share of work on live 300V+ systems for close to 20 years. I'm still alive for a reason.

Just about everyone understands being burned or having your fingers go between a chain and sprocket, but most people don't understand the flow of electricity so that brings both unfounded fear and unfortunately sometimes mistakes.

Anyways, those are my two cents.

Your safety grounds are quite just and the initial issue identified before the event was that with the stark when released had no way of disconnecting the battery from the controller in the case of an emergency. the bike remained live and a controller only stopped the potentiometer, (throttle) from sending signal to the controller sending power from the battery to the Motor. the Canbus connector and the power from the battery were in constant on condition.
The Power Button on the bars merely turned off the throttle signal.

Stark released a video the other day showing that they did build in a lanyard that activated a shunt to cut of the power in the event of a rider down moment.
As with E-bikes there is no audible way to tell if it is live.

The thermal runaway is an issue if a Lithium ion or Lithium Iron Phosphate battery go into meltdown caused by either failed BMS or thermal Management system.
However in the case of a battery rupture then that can still occur.
The real issue is the toxic fumes form such are fire. the toxicity level way higher than any Ice Fire and are horrendous.
The resultant fire temperature can reach 2500 degrees C
The fix for such a thermal runaway fire is to submerge a bike in a cooled Brine so as to do two things.
One - absorb the heat energy from the fire; and
Two- the brine shorts out the battery as the brine electrolyte removes the charge/ shorts the battery out reducing the reaction within the damage cells that are on runaway.
Once that occurs the burning battery cell electrolyte stops generating combustable gas - stops continuing to fuel the fire, thus suffocating it.

A plunge pool full of refrigerated Brine would safely take care of any bike in this toxic hazardous condition, as after all the battery on the stark is only the size of some 20 cordless Milwaukee 5 Ahr drill batteries. (of which the stadium probably has hundred in all the team trucks.)
a 10 ft x 10 Ft x 6 ft deep Plunge pool filled with cooled brine could handle up to 4 so burning bikes with ease - 25% of a field in an MX or SX race heat.

 

[Beagle]

Please don't confuse the FIM refusal with AMA last second rule change and their head up their own backsides.
AMA do not care about bike owners. AMA MX /SX are a pure marketing arm of the two largest motorcycle makers in the world (Honda 16 million units in 2023 and KTM and its parents some 5 million units)
The BS from FIM was conveyed on safety and lack of fire marshal training.
AMA are gutless POS pandering to Honda and KTM who both have Electric models but disagree EV should race with ICE.
I agree to disagree that MX/SX should have no separation . I guarantee that no actual AMA member gets a vote nor say in the matter and the corrupt administration pander to pressure from Red and Orange.
At least the Australian governing body ( Motorcross Aistralia) have seen the sense in letting the battle happen on the track whilst the EU and the Gutless Yanks fear the backlash.
Buch of soft coc$s if you ask me.
Rest of the world might not care what happens down under but at least we give Stark a chance to prove if they can compete or not.
Just sayin.

I share your feelings about this and kudos to motorcycle Australia.

No need to make excuses for FIM, they did not bother to provide a single explanation for the last minute change of rules excluding electrics from FIM super enduro.

Also FIM does not represent Europe, it (is supposed to) represent(s) all national federations. Electrics are legal to race in France pretty much as in Australia. And it's obviously racing in the UK as well.

With electrics allowed in more and more competitions, it's going to get harder to justify keeping them out in specific countries.

 

[Beagle]

This interview is interesting, it's a balancing act between keeping the OEM immediate interests at heart and acknowledging that electrics are the future of the sport.

When he says that something will happen with electrics and supercross in the near future, while stating that he doesn't want electrics to compete with ICE, I feel that they will start small time like demo laps or opening demo race. But once you see electrics racing competitively and scoring good results it will get hard to keep them at this demo stage. For sure once Honda electric is out (it will probably take a couple of years), electrics in AMA will be either allowed to race with ICE or get their own class/championship (with at least 2 competitive bikes).

 

[Michael Anders]

I

This interview is interesting, it's a balancing act between keeping the OEM immediate interests at heart and acknowledging that electrics are the future of the sport.

When he says that something will happen with electrics and supercross in the near future, while stating that he doesn't want electrics to compete with ICE, I feel that they will start small time like demo laps or opening demo race. But once you see electrics racing competitively and scoring good results it will get hard to keep them at this demo stage. For sure once Honda electric is out (it will probably take a couple of years), electrics in AMA will be either allowed to race with ICE or get their own class/championship (with at least 2 competitive bikes).

It is my belief that the question in the interview was to deflect some of the growing criticism.
And that Criticism- it is coming like winter in GOT.
AMA have no intention of allowing ICE and EV and I recall he said maybe their own class in near future - maybe 2025 / 2027.
But for now No electric at all - is as per the 2024 rule release.
No E-bikes in any AMA sanctioned event Hare scramble , MX/SX etc.
Just not going to happen while he has a say and Honda and KTM pull the strings and grease the palms of AMA.

No Artic Leopard, ECM, Stark , Kove, CFMoto(KTM colab) , Primo Flux, Surron Stom Bee, Apllo RFN(Beta E-MX) and the list keep growing of E-bike variants.

 

[Michael Anders]

I share your feelings about this and kudos to motorcycle Australia.

No need to make excuses for FIM, they did not bother to provide a single explanation for the last minute change of rules excluding electrics from FIM super enduro.

Also FIM does not represent Europe, it (is supposed to) represent(s) all national federations. Electrics are legal to race in France pretty much as in Australia. And it's obviously racing in the UK as well.

With electrics allowed in more and more competitions, it's going to get harder to justify keeping them out in specific countries.

Fair Point the FIM not just EU.
FIM are supposed to be the unifying body for all motorsport internationally as a global body with consultation from governing member country motor sport bodies
- Bikes being only part of the scene.
FIM cover cars , trucks, bikes, quads, any motorsport on international stage. (even formulae E and F1).
As you point out other country motor cross bodies make their own rulings also.
AMA however are USA only

I did not excuse the FIM either but the thread started on AMA and e-bike in AMA race.
Tady was not racing in an AMA event.
It was a european FIM sanctioned super enduro and AMA had no control over the event what soever. I think some may have the incorrect idea that AMA stopped taddy.
No - It is my understanding that FIM double did a double take and shat their pants because KTM threatened to pull out and pack up their bat and ball and go home.
It was reported that Safety issues and lack of fire marshals - so the excuses that were thrown around. but no formal press release from What I am aware.
Stark too diplomatic to fling mud that could go against them.
I too glad to see France has allowed Stark to race on same tracks same events.
IMO only head to head racing will prove the capability of the ICE and E to compete or not -( not some desk jockey in a boardroom looking for sponsorship and TV dollars).

 

[Beagle]

Sorry to nitpick, just to say that FIM stands for Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (International Motorcycling Federation), it's the global governing/sanctioning body of motorcycle racing represents 119 national motorcycle federations.

Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The car equivalent is FIA

Yes AMA had nothing to do with FIM super Enduro excluding Taddy, we will see if things will be sorted by the time AMA Endurocross starts later this year.

 

[Swank171]

I did not confuse the AMA with all Americans nor American History.
AMA are wankers and soft Co*ks and pander to Honda and KTM.
AMA MX and SX is nothing but a marketing exercise for the big 6 off-road motorcycle makes with two of those loosing power every day.
Suzuki and Kawasaki near toothless in the play, Yamaha and the KTM group , KTM , Husky & Gas Gas -
so you might get a few Beta and maybe a sherco in the enduro or hare scramble maybe a Reiju or a Kove or maybe a Hero from India but not in SX/MX.

I do not recall the sight of a Fantic , nor a Triumph or a Cagiva ever race in 2023 in the USA.
Unless a manufacturer makes and sell 400 units in the USA it cannot race. Read your rule book.

There is no history lesson to be learned.
Your Patriotism clouds your eyesight it seems - as you read things that were not written.
AMA suck balls pure and simple.
AMA are a joke.

Oh and if it was not for Assies you yanks would have all perished in Vietnam and Korea.
Don't preach what you know nothing about young grasshopper.

Those with the loudest mouths have the most to lose.

You make a lot of assumptions and use a lot of learned slang but hardly know what half the began blathering you rattle off means. Haha, I appreciate all the advice….

is it dark in there where your head is…? Maybe one day you’ll hear that Loud pop….until then, Cheers bud.

 

[Michael Anders]

Yo

Those with the loudest mouths have the most to lose.

You make a lot of assumptions and use a lot of learned slang but hardly know what half the began blathering you rattle off means. Haha, I appreciate all the advice….

is it dark in there where your head is…? Maybe one day you’ll hear that Loud pop….until then, Cheers bud.

You young one of no knowledge.
My sides are on the floor with laughter as you clearly cannot read.
Good day to you.
Ride safe and watch out for cars.

 

[Michael Anders]

Sorry to nitpick, just to say that FIM stands for Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (International Motorcycling Federation), it's the global governing/sanctioning body of motorcycle racing represents 119 national motorcycle federations.

Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The car equivalent is FIA

Yes AMA had nothing to do with FIM super Enduro excluding Taddy, we will see if things will be sorted by the time AMA Endurocross starts later this year.

I stand corrected Beagle. My bad - as I did confuse the FIM with FIA and autoracing.
AMA wont change their stance unless members get a vote and the vote seems split on ICE and E in same race on track at same time.
IMO it will not happen in Merica land. After all those same 50% support a red headed clown for president LOL

 

[Redbull]

How do racing orgs propose to solve the advantages of electrics racing alongside ICE when electrics shouldn't overheat in the mud the way ICE bikes do, won't ever flame out and stall during aggressive clutch work, and won't have any issues with late braking into flat right hand first corners?

 

[sand300]

electric has its disadvantages too.
more weight, no clutch to pop the front (i find you must plan ahead), body position is far more important; especially on enduro. the chances of whisky throttle and hurting yourself is far higher.

there's plus and minuses for both

 

[Michael Anders]

How do racing orgs propose to solve the advantages of electrics racing alongside ICE when electrics shouldn't overheat in the mud the way ICE bikes do, won't ever flame out and stall during aggressive clutch work, and won't have any issues with late braking into flat right hand first corners?

Those that oppose E seem to think E is unfair.
Not to dissimilar from those that argued 4T was unfair over 2T but 2T would be way faster.
I don't have an allegiance to any - I loved my XR600R and I was never good at MX.
Me personally, I want to see the category open and head to head racing.
The AMA have shut down any opportunity of that in an AMA sanctioned event.
Using BS about safety - when Stark have address those safety concerns with the exception of a flashing LED that can be seen from any angle to show the bike is active and power on. But that too can be an easy fix.
Engineering solutions can be provided to meet any real safety issue.
This has been proven by Stark, and it should have had a Battery disconnect at the start. a simple quick battery disconnect in the event of an accident.
All motor sport has required battery isolation switches for past 50 years with the exception of bikes.

I am glad UK motocross , French Motocross and Aussie motocross bodies have decided to give Stark and for that matter any other E-Bike a chance to race head to head.
The only way to see if these bikes are as good as the traditional ICE bike is to let them race, and not in a modified less number of laps / time .
If 30 minute Moto + 2 laps is the norm then that is what it needs to be. The arena cross was only limited lap race in any case so nothing was done to give stark its own benefit.
If Stark , Alta, CF Moto, Primo Flux, Kove, Surron and others are cutting it up with the 4T then great .
If not then I am all for am E Class only , but at present only Stark have shown some level of making a competitive eBike.
Let them fight it out on the track , not beeing hobbled from a board room full of marketing wankers pandering to the Moto Mafia.

 

[Beagle]

Electrics are legal to race in AMA sprint enduro

https://ussprintenduro.com/%e2%9a%a1electric%e2%9a%a1motorcycles-in-usse/

 

[Philip]

Electrics are legal to race in AMA sprint enduro

https://ussprintenduro.com/%e2%9a%a1electric%e2%9a%a1motorcycles-in-usse/

This looks like a fun opportunity for East Coasters:

Series Schedule - This is Sprint Enduro - Elevated!

More Detailed Information for the upcoming round is found HERE on our website.

ussprintenduro.com

 

[Michael Anders]

Electrics are legal to race in AMA sprint enduro

https://ussprintenduro.com/%e2%9a%a1electric%e2%9a%a1motorcycles-in-usse/