Flux Performance - eMX startup from Europe

[Beagle]

That's interesting, wish you more luck than Alta (and Cake)

FluxMoto on Instagram: "⚡ Marc Fenigstein joins FluxMoto! ⚡ Flux Performance, the Slovenian tech leader in electric motorcycles, is thrilled to welcome Marc Fenigstein, formerly co-founder and CEO of Alta Motors, to our advisory board and as an inve

369 likes, 28 comments - fluxmotorcycles on July 2, 2024: "⚡ Marc Fenigstein joins FluxMoto! ⚡ Flux Performance, the Slovenian tech leader in electric motorcycles, is thrilled to welcome Marc Fenigstein, formerly co-founder and CEO of Alta Motors, to our advisory board and as an investor...

www.instagram.com

 

[Philip]

AWESOME! Flux really needed help with growing and scaling up. I am excited!



Flux Performance, the Slovenian tech leader in electric motorcycles, is thrilled to welcome Marc Fenigstein, formerly co-founder and CEO of Alta Motors, to our advisory board and as an investor!

Marc and Alta’s legacy in pioneering competitive electric motocross bikes is a massive boost for Flux. His experience and vision will be key as we aim to lead the electric motorcycle market.

Marko, CEO of Flux: “Alta was the OG, they imagined and mass-produced the first competitive eMX bike ever and made it reliably. We want to build on top of that and avoid past mistakes.”

Marc: “Flux is the team that can take electric motorcycles to the next stage. I’m thrilled to invest my time and money into them. What they have in the works is mind-blowing.”

This announcement marks the second major addition to the Flux Performance team in a week’s time. Alongside Marc Fenigstein, Flux has also welcomed Karl Ytterborn, former Chief Marketing Officer and co-founder of CAKE electric motorcycles, as CMO.

Read more at: FLUX Motorcycles - ALTA MOTORS FOUNDER MARC FENIGSTEIN JOINS FLUX MOTORCYCLES

Stay tuned for more updates as we charge ahead!

 

[Marko_Flux]

Thanks! I’m flattered and honoured to be attracting these people and let me assure you, it’s not the salary .

Alta you all know the story, with Cake I wasn’t a fan of the product, but the marketing always seemed good.

With them we’ve got a wealth of experience, what worked and what didn’t….how many people on earth started a world famous eMoto company from scratch…

 

[Johnny Depp]

Thanks, so first thing's first, here's the video of the trail ride range test:

We strive to be the EV company that's honest with their customers.

Having a modular battery is doable, but everything in life is a compromise. Dual battery means running them in parallel, so you'll have double the cells in series, meaning a much more expensive BMS combined, compared to a single battery with equal specs. There's ofc also considerations for extra weight with doubling housings, fixtures etc.

Our team's background is in aerospace, so we have a competitive advantage in the higher performance spectrum. There's only one competitor there today, while on the light off-roader side there's a bunch (KTM, Surron, Dust?, etc). Some of those are already good, others can be made better with a suspension swap. Components are readily available off-the-shelf. It seems advantages there would be razor thin and the Asians can beat us on price. There would be some willing to pay a premium for more, but generally a beginner/playbike is much more price sensitive than something like the Varg, where you want the best. At lower power levels, a high voltage system's cons start to outweigh the pros. Those are my thoughts at least.

The Primo has a swappable battery, you can yank it out from the side. It's not optimised right now with a quick release system, but you just undo the bolts, detach 2 connectors and out it goes.
My question for you guys is would you be buying a second battery at a €6-7k price point? Or would a higher range and faster charging solve the shortcomings in a better way?

There’s no replacement for the competitive advantage in racing of a lightweight quick swap setup. Smaller/lighter performance benefits outweigh the disadvantages of range.

 

[Number Six]

Thanks! I’m flattered and honoured to be attracting these people and let me assure you, it’s not the salary .

Alta you all know the story, with Cake I wasn’t a fan of the product, but the marketing always seemed good.

With them we’ve got a wealth of experience, what worked and what didn’t….how many people on earth started a world famous eMoto company from scratch…

Congratulations on the continuing forward momentum of the product.

A question regarding the kind-of-a-clutch / re-gen thing ; does the system have the ability to RELEASE stored energy as with a traditional mechanical clutch ?

I find that when riding my electric & I need to lighten the front wheel to clear a log or manual over a depression or hole, having to do that using only the throttle gets a bit tricky & with little margin for error.
Seems there's a much wider range of operation for that sort of technique on a gas bike with its mechanical clutch & the slower spinning up motor.
Have you considered testing a conventional mechanical clutch similar as those used on some of the E-Motion bikes ?

 

[Marko_Flux]

Congratulations on the continuing forward momentum of the product.

A question regarding the kind-of-a-clutch / re-gen thing ; does the system have the ability to RELEASE stored energy as with a traditional mechanical clutch ?

I find that when riding my electric & I need to lighten the front wheel to clear a log or manual over a depression or hole, having to do that using only the throttle gets a bit tricky & with little margin for error.
Seems there's a much wider range of operation for that sort of technique on a gas bike with its mechanical clutch & the slower spinning up motor.
Have you considered testing a conventional mechanical clutch similar as those used on some of the E-Motion bikes ?

The idea is by having enough wheel torque, one can simulate that "release response" with software. Precisely for what you mentioned, you could have a very mellow power delivery on throttle (for grip and control), but use the e-clutch for the quick pop. The current proto doesn't have that release response programming yet, as we're lacking wheel torque in this configuration.

Trials are ofc very specific bikes. We probably won't test it in the near term, to focus resources on things we deem more high priority, I don't feel the mech. clutch is the way to go on this bike. The reasoning:
-small inertia in an eMotor rotor means not much "stored" kinetic energy to release
-a clutch would add probably 2kg and 500$ to the bike + take volume away from other components
-heat issues (more oil needed -> more weight, extra heating of the motor unit)
-range reduction (clutch transforms motion into heat, but even without engagement, there's a % of slip and resulting losses being generated)

 

[Philip]

More and more I am convinced that having a mechanical clutch or a gearbox on an electeric bike is a "crutch" for not having good software.

 

[Trialsman]

More and more I am convinced that having a mechanical clutch or a gearbox on an electeric bike is a "crutch" for not having good software.

Exactly ! The idea of a left hand clutch controlled by finger is a fine motor skill. Using the entire wrist with the throttle is a gross motor skill and is not nearly as accurate. The idea of the "clutch" itself, is worthwhile for a woods rider, but not at the expense of weight, range, and complexity as would be needed with a mechanical clutch. Interrupting the signal from the throttle back to the ECU should be a very doable software item with the aid of a linear (clutch lever) switch. When I get time I am still going to play around with this idea.

 

[Number Six]

The idea is by having enough wheel torque, one can simulate that "release response" with software. Precisely for what you mentioned, you could have a very mellow power delivery on throttle (for grip and control), but use the e-clutch for the quick pop. The current proto doesn't have that release response programming yet, as we're lacking wheel torque in this configuration.

This makes sense & jives with several comments from Varg owners about having to run in a higher power mode than they'd prefer on single track in order to get the kind of quick response & power to lift the front reliably.

-small inertia in an eMotor rotor means not much "stored" kinetic energy to release

I have noticed on some of the videos on the E-motion bikes that the clutch does appear to be a bit of a light switch, likely due to the lack of enretia mentioned.

Damn physics ! They insist on getting in the way of perfection, don't they ? , Hope you can 'software' your way closer to an effective solution.
I like very much the characteristics of the electric power 98% of the time, but since I lack the talent of an Eddie Carlson or Taddy, it's that remaining 2% that gives me some trouble on the E bike.

 

[Redbull]

Exactly ! The idea of a left hand clutch controlled by finger is a fine motor skill. Using the entire wrist with the throttle is a gross motor skill and is not nearly as accurate. The idea of the "clutch" itself, is worthwhile for a woods rider, but not at the expense of weight, range, and complexity as would be needed with a mechanical clutch. Interrupting the signal from the throttle back to the ECU should be a very doable software item with the aid of a linear (clutch lever) switch. When I get time I am still going to play around with this idea.

I completely agree with this idea and the more diverse the terrain and speeds, the more this is needed.

In terms of power delivery programming, when I ask for a "clutch" I am not asking for a way to traditionally be able to load up the energy reserves, I am seeking a way to have a finer throttle control delivered faster/slower be it a sharper power snap or to feather it on demand in a way that I can do better with my finger than I can with with my wrist. Like it or not no matter how good I am at separating my hand/wrist from my arm, I am still using my throttle hand/wrist hold on to, push/pull and lean the bars. Whereas my clutch finger(s) have no body-to-handling input to the bars and can maintain a level of precision and dexterity beyond any other body part in control of a control lever.

To me something like this isn't getting electric dirt bikes to feel like ICE, it is actually advancing the ways we can use a programmable input in a way that doesn't involve looking down or hunting for a button/switch. All I can do right now (at the lever) is adjust where my clutch engages but imagine being able to software program how it engages or what it does? I want to program it to scale the power linearly from 100-50% of current throttle input; or go into regen when pulled; or to go up one map while pulled and back when released without having to reach for a map switch; or to jump into beast mode and swell from 55hp to 75hp only while pulled. Even pulling back the power works for example when pulled in it drops power from 60hp to 30hp for slippy sections yet having full throttle twist range.

Having a programmable lever AND programmable map buttons take huge advantage of inputs we are already wired to use. Pulling over and adjusting things on a mobile phone when we get to a challenging section seems like a step backward not forward. The Stark promise of truly having a 150cc and a 450cc in one bike becomes a reality when the terrain you are riding on demands completely difference performance characteristics in one stretch of trail all without stopping to change anything. What I would have given for that on my 950 Adventure to tame the 100 hp when dirt turned to slippy wet clay in the tight stuff or the rocky loose shale single track on the edge of a steep cliff turned into 180 switchbacks.

 

[Marko_Flux]

Sharing a nice edit from our recent photoshoot:

 

[Erwin P]

Years past the first post but will still answer to it as if i did not have a Stark allready (wich i'm very happy with).

Full power bike:
-45kW
-112kg
-6kWh, 400V battery
-liquid cooled motor and inverter with geared reduction

So some questions for you (some might seem silly, but please humor me):
-what do you think about the proposed prototypes. I think your full poewr bike would hve a pull for me.
-do you value more design or performance. 45kW/60hp is near perfect. I would not want less on a E bike.
-does it being made in EU hold value to you. Yess it is. I would say a 20/30% premium over out of Europe. For example a €10.000 China bike will loose from a identical €12.000/13.000 bike from Europe.
-what suspension would you like to see on there (for series, no factory stuff obviously). KYB, works perfect on Starks and shines on Yamaha.
-is smartphone connectivity important to you and what features would you like to have Yess and no. I would love a real dash that does everything in race. Modes, range/battery percentage etc. A smartphone app for adjusting maps would be handier to work than on a compact dashboard.
-any other comments on the above. Use as many off the shelf parts as you can. Seriously one of the things that got me onto a Stark was that they used KTM/Beta compatible parts (so the other way around as well).

 

[bayodome]

Sharing a nice edit from our recent photoshoot:

Bike is looking great! Rider is ripping too! Who is that?

 

[Marko_Flux]

Bike is looking great! Rider is ripping too! Who is that?

Luka Milec, Slovenian pro. Speed-wise he was in the top of EuroMX, but persistent injuries meant retiring from racing full time.

 

[AgileMike]

@Marko_Flux As an electric enthusiast (two Starks, two Teslas, multiple Specialized eMTBs, etc) I'm super excited for more companies to join in the electric dirt bike category. More companies = more competition = better products and pricing for consumers.

My question is this: How much of a disadvantage is being a second mover into the space?

As a Tesla fan, I've watched multiple startups (Fisker, maybe Rivian, Nikola, Lordstown) and OEMs (Volkswagon group, Ford [EV division lost 1.22B Q3 2024 on margins of -104%] fail in the EV space. One of the major reasons of failure is second movers are now up against an established first mover.

Ie, Tesla is successful because when they entered the market there was no Tesla. The second major reason for failure is it seems that Tesla competitors are aiming at a released Tesla model but taking years to get to production. By the time they get to production, the Tesla has improved and the startup product is no longer competative.

What is Flux doing to avoid the Fisker situation?

 

[Marko_Flux]

@Marko_Flux As an electric enthusiast (two Starks, two Teslas, multiple Specialized eMTBs, etc) I'm super excited for more companies to join in the electric dirt bike category. More companies = more competition = better products and pricing for consumers.

My question is this: How much of a disadvantage is being a second mover into the space?

As a Tesla fan, I've watched multiple startups (Fisker, maybe Rivian, Nikola, Lordstown) and OEMs (Volkswagon group, Ford [EV division lost 1.22B Q3 2024 on margins of -104%] fail in the EV space. One of the major reasons of failure is second movers are now up against an established first mover.

Ie, Tesla is successful because when they entered the market there was no Tesla. The second major reason for failure is it seems that Tesla competitors are aiming at a released Tesla model but taking years to get to production. By the time they get to production, the Tesla has improved and the startup product is no longer competative.

What is Flux doing to avoid the Fisker situation?

I would firstly not want to be in the same sentence as straight up scammers like Fisker, Lordstown and Nikola.

We often compare everything to Tesla, but I argue every story is unique. Zero, Brammo, Alta, Yahoo, MySpace, Bird, the graveyard is full of first movers.
Being a fast follower you can jump those learning curves. First movers experiment on a lot of aspects that create organizational and technical debt. A lot of those can be observed and emulated by competitors (not counting OEMs with their huge ICE baggage).

Tesla had built up essentially a 15 year advantage starting from practically zero in terms of world EV adoption and suply chains. They almost died several times.
We are all tapping into automotive supply chains, we don't need to invent battery cells or semiconductors. Our biggest hurdle isn't technical, it's fundraising in the worst equity market since 2008, but things are moving.

Alta had to invent the competitive e-dirtbike from scratch.
Stark is improving on that base, but they are pushing hard to convince riders & regulators that e-dirtbikes are the way to go.
We have to make the superior bike, which I'm convinced we're on track to do. And keep making it better faster than anyone else, which I'm convinced our team is capable of.

Who knows where the story leads. We have all the IP in-house, maybe we end up like Rimac Automobili where the dirtbike lineup doubles as the showcase and tech driver, maybe we take a huge share, maybe we pivot, maybe we die.

For now the mission is clear, make the best (electric) dirtbike on the planet and the technology that powers it. Let execution and history write about winners and losers.

 

[Erwin P]

Just as an outsider that knows little about you or your product.

I don't think that you should aim for Stark kind of sales, nor design the bike to. Stark, as you said, is raised by rich guys with rich friends. Nothing wrong with that as rich guys can also be passionate and lead to very good products. Just look at Royal Enfield, a rich kids pet project that shines after he took over.
Also don't aim directly at Stark as a treat and especially don't let them conceive you as such. That's a fight you will never win. However Stark has every insentive to have competitors that are good, but don't outshine them too much on the track.

As a small manufacturer i think you should focus on the flexibility and exclusivity that offers.
I would pay a higher price for a more custom bike/battery build. In the Dutch enduro settings weight is not nearly as much of an issue as is battery range through sand and mud. (DC) Chargers are everywhere and people have the money to buy rapid chargers and quick swap batterys. If it is roughly as efficiënt as the Stark a 10kW battery would be close to minimum combined with either a quick and 1 person battery swap or a very rapid charger.
However move more into the rocky terrain of Spain etc and weight really starts to matter while there range isn't an issue as you will be working all day through 10 km of rocks.

Stark wants to build a lott of the same specific bikes for very specific purposes and don't seem to believe in modulairity as much. Wich is fine when you sell big numbers, but leaves room for smaller companies like yourself. Maico also still builds 700 2 strokes. A bike very few people want and even less need, but are sold at a high price with enough margin to keep doing it.

For now i think the Stark is more beautiful, wich has its own appeal, but with some shaving and custom work you could achieve that offcourse.

Also a very big concern for me with a little company like yours is spare parts. You will need to convince me i can get nearly everything EVEN if your brand doesn't make it past 2 years. Sprockets, wheels, brakes, suspension etc etc all need to be as interchangebable with other bikes as possible. Hell having a way to fit KTM/Beta/Yamaha/whatever-bigger-brand platework to it would be a huge plus.
As for electrics and gearboxes go convince me of (industry) standard sizes and outlets.

I truly believe in your passion and ability to build a very good bike, i just need convincing to buying into a brand that has very limited financial resources.

 

[Beagle]

Marko I like your style and love your enthusiasm, wish you the best.

Just to say Zero Motorcycles are not dead, in fact a friend just bought one! Their sales must be quite low (I've seen in the 300 per year in France which is supposedly their biggest European market) but they do have dealers around the world (about 100 in North America and over 150 in Europe) and have been active for 18 years which is pretty impressive in this space. They've just partnered with Hero so we'll see what happens to them next.

 

[Erwin P]

Marko I like your style and love your enthusiasm, wish you the best.

Just to say Zero Motorcycles are not dead, in fact a friend just bought one! Their sales must be quite low (I've seen in the 300 per year in France which is supposedly their biggest European market) but they do have dealers around the world (about 100 in North America and over 150 in Europe) and have been active for 18 years which is pretty impressive in this space. They've just partnered with Hero so we'll see what happens next for them.

Even more impressive is their way of selling low quality bikes for premium money. True i have an older model, but if it weren't for the badly gleud on American flag i would have thought it was a €4000 China bike.

Bought it used but very underimpressed to the point it almost ruined E bikes for me.

 

[Marko_Flux]

As a small mfg we need to focus on becoming a big mfg, other players will come, you can count on every OEM having a bike for the eMXGP in 2026. There will be consolidation.
We need to swing for the fences, small garages retrofitting stuff won't be competitive in the new world. That's my take at least.