STARK VARG (Something new is coming!)

[Rashid510]

Alta never really expressed any interest in going hard after the Euro market. Stark states they going after that market, trying to fulfill that need.

US customer demand for the Varg will less than Europe's (percentage-wise), but it'll still be substantial just based on the US market size.

Thats sorta not true...before we went under we were very much actively trying to release the MXR for the EU market. EU Homologation is a PITA and required some work from our ME team to push...and they did right to the point of closure.

 

[F451]

I have never tried to reach the terminal speed, but my EXR easily gets to 70 mph on the GPS with stock gearing and a 6'-3" rider (me) NOT in a tuck.

I don't see replacing either of my ALTAs with a Varg unless the range proves to be much greater than the ALTA, and that would primarily be relevant for me if they decide to sell a street legal bike. However, I certainly hope they are successful, especially in the U.S. market.

25 lbs lighter then my MXR!

Reportedly greater range. Fully programmable power, torque, regen. KYB suspension with option for rider weight springs!

Ordered one yesterday. 18" rear wheel, 80 hp, LHRB, 210 lb spring rates. Can't wait to get it.

 

[Swank171]

Thats sorta not true...before we went under we were very much actively trying to release the MXR for the EU market. EU Homologation is a PITA and required some work from our ME team to push...and they did right to the point of closure.

Ever think of starting another company? I bet you could get state funding considering the current political state in CA.haha. I couldn't imagine what ALTA would have now had the development continued.

 

[UKLee]

I have ordered one, I asked Stark about the battery if it is quick change there reply was "The Stark VARG is not designed to swap batteries." I read the battery is a stressed member of the frame. Not keen on the lack of frame down tubes to hold a strong guard to protect the battery instead it has some kind of foam between the guard and the battery to absorb an impact.

My delivery date is November 22nd, hopefully by then others will have had there bikes for a while and I can decide what to do. Yamaha, honda, ktm and Gilera have joined up to design a battery for them all to use, If yamaha or honda come up with something along these lines I will drop this

 

[F451]

I have ordered one, I asked Stark about the battery if it is quick change there reply was "The Stark VARG is not designed to swap batteries." I read the battery is a stressed member of the frame. Not keen on the lack of frame down tubes to hold a strong guard to protect the battery instead it has some kind of foam between the guard and the battery to absorb an impact.

My delivery date is November 22nd, hopefully by then others will have had there bikes for a while and I can decide what to do. Yamaha, honda, ktm and Gilera have joined up to design a battery for them all to use, If yamaha or honda come up with something along these lines I will drop this

Josh Hill mentions the factory guys can swap the battery out in "10-20 mins" around the 20:30 mark of this vid. Besides the expense of another battery pack with its spendy magnesium cover design, it doesn't sound like the battery pack is designed for an easy or quick swap.

The rest of this interview is also very interesting, I can't wait to see how this bike does in the real world.

 

[C5tor]

Without Josh’s endorsement and testimonial on this, I wouldn’t have plunked down a deposit. Josh has about as much experience with ebikes as anyone in the world, especially Alta. Also, with his insane riding skills, he can put a bike through its paces better than almost any rider out there. So I would trust his opinion on whether it is a better bike than the Alta.

Frankly, I don’t care if it is a better bike than a 450. I just cared whether it will be a better bike than an Alta. I already made the decision 3 years ago that electric was the better choice (for me) than an ICE bike. I said I would stick with the Alta until something better came along. If even half of the hype is true, it is a better bike. New battery chemistry. Lighter. Customizable. It even looks better (and I like the looks of the Alta).

I don’t really care about the power. 80 hp is unusable, unless you are jumping huge gaps. I don’t use more than 50% of what the Alta packs anyway. But I do want more usable range. All the specs on the Varg look impressive except for the 6 kwh rating on the battery. It really isn’t any bigger than the Alta 5.8 kwh. I don’t think lighter weight, more efficient motor, better battery chemistry, or better thermal management can possibly double the ride time. But I would certainly take a 30% boost in ride time, and I think we will get that.

 

[F451]

Without Josh’s endorsement and testimonial on this, I wouldn’t have plunked down a deposit. Josh has about as much experience with ebikes as anyone in the world, especially Alta. Also, with his insane riding skills, he can put a bike through its paces better than almost any rider out there. So I would trust his opinion on whether it is a better bike than the Alta.

Frankly, I don’t care if it is a better bike than a 450. I just cared whether it will be a better bike than an Alta. I already made the decision 3 years ago that electric was the better choice (for me) than an ICE bike. I said I would stick with the Alta until something better came along. If even half of the hype is true, it is a better bike. New battery chemistry. Lighter. Customizable. It even looks better (and I like the looks of the Alta).

I don’t really care about the power. 80 hp is unusable, unless you are jumping huge gaps. I don’t use more than 50% of what the Alta packs anyway. But I do want more usable range. All the specs on the Varg look impressive except for the 6 kwh rating on the battery. It really isn’t any bigger than the Alta 5.8 kwh. I don’t think lighter weight, more efficient motor, better battery chemistry, or better thermal management can possibly double the ride time. But I would certainly take a 30% boost in ride time, and I think we will get that.

My thoughts exactly. With having Tortelli onboard, Hill, and a few of the other players involved, these guys are the real deal. If anyone besides one of the major OEM's can pull this off, its these guys.

Time will tell though, 2022 is going to be interesting!

Ps: Did I mangle the grammar on those first few sentences? Just trying to get the words out, Lol

 

[Philip]

I don’t think lighter weight, more efficient motor, better battery chemistry, or better thermal management can possibly double the ride time. But I would certainly take a 30% boost in ride time, and I think we will get that.

I noticed that, compared to the Alta, the 450's have a lot less wheelspin, and they throw a lot less roost. The wheelspin and the roost are all wasted energy.

The 450's have very heavy flywheels. Their engines have to accelerate those flywheels. The flywheels reduce the wheelspin, but they also give the energy back when traction becomes available.

One way to reduce the wheelspin on the Alta is to add a very heavy flywheel, similar to what the 450's have. This would improve the traction, but it could result in even more power losses (accelerating and then decelerating the flywheel). It would also make the bike accelerate slower when traction is available.

A more efficient way to achieve the same thing (waste less energy) is to have a more powerful motor with more torque but add a very tight electronic traction control. Without a heavy flywheel, you need more torque than the 450's have so that when the traction becomes available this extra torque acts like a flywheel to propel the bike forward.

The reason the Alta is so less tiresome to ride than the 450s is because it is lacking that kick that the flywheel's inertia gives when traction becomes available. I am thinking, with 80 hp and with a more aggressive traction control, the Stark Varg would be able to pull the rider's arms out of their sockets just like some 450's can.

Yes, a more powerful motor with a more aggressive traction control should result in a more efficient bike. It should definitely add a few minutes on a motocross track. I highly doubt it could add hours of trail riding. But we will see that soon.

 

[Trialsman]

For Erzberg, did they not set up Ty Tremaine and Lyndon Poskitt's Altas with a heavier flywheel? What was the effect and how successful was the attempt? Has anyone else added flywheel weight to their Alta? Maybe time for another project.

 

[Philip]

For Erzberg, did they not set up Ty Tremaine and Lyndon Poskitt's Altas with a heavier flywheel? What was the effect and how successful was the attempt? Has anyone else added flywheel weight to their Alta? Maybe time for another project.

Lyndon had some heavier flywheels for sale, but nobody knows who bought them.

A heavier flywheel reportedly saves a few seconds per lap at Glen Helen. I also think it is a must in the sand.

 

[Harrison]

Do you need a physical flywheel that adds weight? Can you accomplish the same thing with software that limits the rate of acceleration/deceleration of the electric motor? I guess a flywheel can provide more instantaneous torque than the Alta's motor... but maybe the motors are capable of more for a very short period of time.

 

[Chadx]

The Varg lets you program the entire the entire power curve, entire engine braking curve, Virtual Flywheel Weight Acceleration, Virtual Flywheel Weight Deceleration, and Traction control. How well it's programmed I don't know, but it should be fairly straight forward. The beauty of a virtual flywheel is it isn't using any extra energy as you increase it since there is nothing physical to spin up. I would think it would be using less energy on acceleration simulating a heavier flywheel since it is tapering off power slightly. Being electronic, it also allows for a different "weight" flywheel for acceleration than for deceleration.

Agreed that some form of traction control would make lap times even faster, but at what point do we take that management away from the rider and put it all on the bike. With all the settings above, that is already an amazing amount of adjustability, but no matter the settings, just like on a ICE bike, ultimately the rider is in control of how far the throttle is twisted so if one is getting faster laps by not holding it wide open on a certain turns or track sections, don't hold it wide open. Easy for me to say because I don't ride motocross. Ha. Unlikely that any form of traction control is legal for sanctioned motocross races. Anyone know?
For for my intended trail riding and non-racing, enduro-type recreational riding, there are few, if any, situations where I'd want any form of traction control offroad. Maybe if riding on rain slick streets.

 

[Philip]

Agreed that some form of traction control would make lap times even faster, but at what point do we take that management away from the rider and put it all on the bike.

I do not think it is an important question. Folks like 125cc bikes and folks like 500cc bikes. On the former, you pin and hold on and it does all its own traction control. On the latter, you feed the throttle gently and hope it doesn't kill you. It is fun either way. I am sure being able to pin the throttle on a 500cc bike and living to tell about it is also fun. And spinning out and crashing on a 125cc bike is exciting as well. With full power delivery control, you can pick which type of fun you prefer to have.

Unlikely that any form of traction control is legal for sanctioned motocross races. Anyone know?

TC is only banned on paper. In reality, all teams and all manufacturers have been using some form of traction control for the last ~20 years.

 

[Kaichen]

 

[Mark911]

All I can say regarding the Varg is that if it looks too good to be true it probably isn't true. The numbers I see just don't add up. If it handles, it's probably going to be a bit better than the Alta when the production bike is released. I just don't see any game changing technology on the bike.

 

[F451]

All I can say regarding the Varg is that if it looks too good to be true it probably isn't true. The numbers I see just don't add up. If it handles, it's probably going to be a bit better than the Alta when the production bike is released. I just don't see any game changing technology on the bike.

I think the handling improvements alone are going to be incredible. Josh Hill was talking about how well it handles and how its not front end heavy like the Alta. They modeled all of the modern MX bikes and built the bike close to those specs as opposed to the Alta which seems to have been built around the battery and motor.

The front heavy nature of the Alta has always driven me crazy.

And the weight. Lopping 25 lbs off an Alta, better frame geometry, better out of the box suspension? Win, win, win. Big time.

The range claims for the Varge, I'm skeptical, but I do believe it will be a step up from the Atlas.

And assuming Varge can stay in business, factory support for parts and repairs. Another win.

And as has been mentioned many times, no need to worry about it, we will see soon enough as soon as the bikes are released.

 

[Mark911]

There's so much more to handling than just geometry. The current crop of gas MX bikes are all within mms of each other yet they all handle differently. I'm betting the production Varg will not weigh under 260lbs with decent tires and tubes. It'll still suffer from thermal issues on a hot day or after a hard ride/charge cycle. It'll never make a 30 minute plus 2 lap race at the pro level.

 

[F451]

There's so much more to handling than just geometry. The current crop of gas MX bikes are all within mms of each other yet they all handle differently. I'm betting the production Varg will not weigh under 260lbs with decent tires and tubes.

Josh Hill, top level pro mx/sx rider. Tortelli, world MX champion.

They are both saying it handles as good as the current crop of 450 mx bikes and the weight is right there too.

I don't know why you're so skeptical, do you really think Hill and Tortelli would risk their reputations by outright lying about the bike?

But again, time will tell, will be fun to see how it actually is once its in the hands of the press and owners. I'm betting its going to be an advancement on all fronts. Could be wrong, we'll see.

 

[Mark911]

Not skeptical, just a lot of experience trying to do the same thing. The prototypes are the same as "Factory/Works" bikes with total attention to detail, non-production parts, and hundreds of hours of "tuning" aimed at making those two guys happy. Don't trust what any paid rider has to say. Tomac now says the Yamaha is the best thing around, Anderson the same with the Kawasaki, every rider that switches brands says the same thing because they're being paid to do so. Nobody holds it against them or questions their reputations. It's part of the game.

 

[fsfs]

Not skeptical, just a lot of experience trying to do the same thing. The prototypes are the same as "Factory/Works" bikes with total attention to detail, non-production parts, and hundreds of hours of "tuning" aimed at making those two guys happy. Don't trust what any paid rider has to say. Tomac now says the Yamaha is the best thing around, Anderson the same with the Kawasaki, every rider that switches brands says the same thing because they're being paid to do so. Nobody holds it against them or questions their reputations. It's part of the game.

For those who don't like the weight distribution of the Alta (front heavy) the Varg addresses that issue. That will not change with production bikes. Tortelli is heavily involved in the frame/chassis -- goal was to fix the weight distribution and make it feel more like a typical ICE bike. That will not change in production. The purpose of these prototypes is to lead to production motorcycles, not to tune the shit out of them and go race.